Westminstenders: In the Brexit Lane

[RedToothBrush]

I honestly couldn't think of a better starter to the thread than simply just this tweet

Robert Peston @ peston
We’ve got an official opposition tearing itself apart over antisemitism, the founder of the EDL running rings around the judiciary and a government negotiating a Brexit plan that its own MPs and ministers tell me is dead. When will we pull ourselves together, as a nation?

But don't worry, your blue passport will get you an extra special long wait at passport control. And no deal could lead to continued freedom of movement anyway. Something for everyone in there.

If you don't want parliamentary sovereignty then feel free for a party that is opposed to it in the next GE.

Lots of love Treeza

To vote ! feel free to vote for

Yes, the 1975 ref was almost 2:1 in favour of remain

However, I remember that officials in the then Common Market were disappointed that it was not over 70%, just 67%

• they said for major decisions changing the entire direction of a nation for many years, that was about the minimum they thought made a secure base.

BigChocFrenzy - I do agree that certain trolling posters do indeed seem to have a variety of "voices".

I have always referred to any poster I don't get a consistent vibe from as "his or her" as I am not going to assume (even if I may have my suspicions ); maybe I should indeed change that to "his, her or their" That would really piss his, her or them off

I'll happily take the cheap shot at Dan Hannan here:

What made capitalism unique was its unprecedented emphasis on the rights of the individual, including the freedom to make contracts unmediated by birth, caste or tradition. It is no coincidence that capitalist Britain led the campaign against international slavery, even diverting ships from the Napoleonic wars to run down slavers...

...In truth, capitalism destroyed slavery, overthrew despots and enriched ordinary people.

No idea has contributed more to human happiness.

It was actually Canada (that behemoth of capitalism and industrialisation) that got the ball rolling on the slave trade in 1793, with the 'Act Against Slavery'.

Britain abolished the trade in 1807, but not slavery itself. That followed in 1833 (actually later, because only slaves under age 6 were emancipated in 1833, with older slaves designated as 'apprentices' until 1838).

And the compensation of slave holders, which was a vital part of the 1833 legislation, was actually a massive redistribution of wealth from the Treasury to a certain section of British (including in those days Irish) society. The £20million earmarked in 1833 for compensation amounted to 40% of GDP. The loan taken out back then to pay the wealthy was not repaid until 2015.

Redistribution is only a laudable concept to people like Dan Hannan when money is being funneled upwards.

Hannan is clearly forgetting that America was not a Commie or fascist regime back in the days of slavery. 'In truth', it took a brutal civil war and the stubbornness of Abraham Lincoln to defeat slavery, and a century of struggle afterwards to defeat the idea that all men are not born equal or entitled to equal rights under the law. That feat was not accomplished by a process of industrialisation or according to the immutable laws of capitalism either. It took the wily cunning and the sheer pigheadedness of Lyndon B. Johnson to force the Civil Rights Act through Congress.

Amazing how Brexiteers seem unable to use more than one thought in their heads at any given time, or conceive of any scenario in which Britain is not the centre and even the sum of the universe.

According to Wiki, Hannan was educated at Winchester House School, Marlborough College and Oriel College, Oxford, where he studied Modern History.

Holy crap
He's not much of an advertisement for any of those august institutions, is he?

“Those of you with an interest in history might find a this 'article' by Daniel Hannan MEP from a few days ago on how British capitalism over threw slavery ….. who knew?”

He used “literally”. I’m always suspicious of anyone who uses “literally (=:= “let’s pretend”).

Obviously don't reply in kind - you won't be as skilled at skating the edges of the rules.

We may be able to keep calm, but others may be not in a good place and can react

that's one of the main purposes of trolling on a monitored site like this: to get the opposing posters banned

Nfi who this person you are talking about is, but I echo this.

You can not out troll a troll.

Don't try to. They want attention. Best thing is to know when to walk away from an argument and nudge others to, if needed too. Stay satisfied with knowing, thats what really winds them up. No one biting.

Internet forums can be an art. Don't fuck with a piss artist.

MyBrexitUnicornDied Has you mother ever tried making her gluten free bread in a breadmaker. Using the gluten free flour.

I am not coeliac, but used to live in a very country area. No nipping to the corner shop. For ordinary bread you eschew a heap of additives. I had the panasonic one where you could add raisins/stuff through a hatch in the top.

Overall, it could be a lot cheaper and you could do trial and error for your taste. I think gluten free supermarket bread is horrible. I think the flour is fine, though. I had a recipe for marble cake with gluten free flour. It was so nice someone (non coeliac) asked me for the recipe and the lovely bundt type baking tin which they never returned . You could just slice and freeze the rest of the loaf if there is only one person eating it.

Don't mean to derail and excuse me for butting in about it. I am sure an actual coeliac knows all the ins and outs a lot better than me. It is just that I loved the home bake with gluten free flour and had the gluten free shop bought bread recently. Chalk and cheese.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/04/tom-watson-labour-antisemitism-eternal-shame

Tom Watson: Labour faces ‘eternal shame’ over antisemitism

Deputy leader demands Jeremy Corbyn acts immediately to halt damaging arguments within the party

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
This is very big. Tom Watson calls for the disciplinary action against Margaret Hodge and Ian Austin to be dropped and for Labour to adopt the full IHRA definition of antisemitism, plus its examples.

Tom Watson has toed the line since the failed attempt to replace Jeremy Corbyn in 2016. He even sang ‘Oh Jeremy Corbyn’ at Labour conference last year. That’s why him coming out so hard on antisemitism tonight is a big deal.

Not convinced by your argument Kevin.

pretty, I think the way you ignored the baiting was very effective. Water off a ducks back when they wanted your feathers all ruffled.

Stephen McGann @StephenMcGann
On the issue of ignorance and feelings in an age of opinion: I grew up working class. Surrounding me were men and women who, though not formally educated, placed huge value on the acquisition of knowledge as a mark of self-respect. Our local library flourished. /1

I can see one such man in my mind's eye now. A pub quiz champion. A self-taught expert on Mahler. A drinker who could recite every line of Shakespeare.. What marked these people wasn't snobbery, but the idea that to be in ignorance was, while not wrong, worth correcting. /2

To know something was liberation - a growth of self that gave a life dignity. One of the worst insults on those streets was to be an 'ignoramus' - someone who gloried in their own lack of knowledge. This wasn't a slight on those who couldn't know, but those who chose not to. /3

What certainly wouldn't have stood in those streets was the idea that a view based on elective ignorance was somehow a valid cultural marker - an identity which must be deferred to and respected as a democratic right. /4

These people in my past- the music listeners, the Shakespeare reciters - were, like me today, often in ignorance of particular facts. But their response to this frequent human condition was to attempt to acquire it in the most reliable way possible. Never to lionise ignorance. /5

For them, like for me, to be poor or humble or simple was no disgrace. But to be in ignorance wilfully was never a desirable residence, and not one worthy of special consideration. /end

Then reality TV happened.

What really pissed off him/her/them on the Scottish Nationalists thread was being told that everything they posted actually helped make the case for independence; he/she/them then tried to claim that he/she/they would wish Scots well if they ever were independent, despite having started the thread trying to make a "clever" point saying that independence supporting Scots were being inconsistent in not wanting to be part of the UK, yet still wanting to be part of the EU.

The thread then followed the classic trolling technique of deflecting onto ad hominem attacks and trying to provoke the same in return.

pretty at his, her or their

mrsr and anyone else who mentioned coeliacs - I second cailleach advise about homemade, it seems daunting at first but its actually easier and more consistent (I'm NCGI btw).

WRT to trolls, I think others notice some of more than me. The ones who concern me are those who have patterns but seem reasonable but you can see they're just trying to steer conversation. We've had a few here and I really don't know how to deal with those as they're not really rule breaking from what I can tell so I try desperately not to cry troll so I am not breaking rules by troll hunting

54321go got into a bit of an argument on the Irish border thread and upset a few posters. I think that’s what likely got her/him banned.

Just delurking to say these stickers were very popular at the folk festival in Sidmouth today!

twitter.com/_MarwanMuhammad/status/1025786653040889856
This thread fact checking a Daily Mail article.

Windrush gagged by non disclosure agreements.

These things should be limited by law. Dirty nasty undemocratic things which under mind rights.

Not exactly Brexit but masked Far Right thugs attacked Bookmarks bookshop in Central London today. They threw around books on Islamophobia and trashed displays.

Bookmarks Bookshop @ Bookmarks_books

04/08/2018
20:22

On Saturday evening around 6:45 just as we were closing. Bookmarks was attacked by around a dozen mask wearing fascists. The attempted to intimidate staff and customers and to destroy books and materials.... facebook.com/12640445744831…

If you are in London and want to show solidarity, they're near the British Museum/University Library - so Tottenham Court Road/Googe Street/Warren Street/Russell Square tube stations.

Masked thugs trashing bookshops....in England...in 2018...

These are terrible times.

This is grim, too much like the growth of fascism in the 1930s, but with added bells & whistles:

We have the tinpot Oswald Mosely
and violent Blackshirt demonstrations in public, attacking the police;
also someone else specifically leading the Blackshirt street fighters - that's new since 1930s

The Daily Heil, Express, spouting poison
"Enemies of the people"
The Telegraph joining them though - didn't happen in the 1930s

The US POTUS crew and Russia sponsoring fascism - new

Now the masked Blackshirts attacking bookshops which stock the "wrong books'`

From thecatfromjapan on the far right politics thread... cat I hope you don't mind me reposting here.

One of my favourite thoughts comes from Sarah Kendzior, who advises that, in times of extremism, you are best advised to take time to write s journal. Begin by writing about your values: what you hold dear, what you aspire to, lines that you will not cross and believe others should not.

Refer to that journal and list at intervals. Check to see if your own and society's boundaries have been pushed.

Be honest and bd brave.

The US POTUS crew and Russia sponsoring fascism - new

www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/12/these-are-the-three-reasons-that-fascism-spread-in-1930s-america-and-might-spread-again-today/
Many American luminaries supported fascism in the 1930s. Granted, not the President, nor the majority of his administration. But this was the America of Jim Crow, of lynching, of eugenics, of entrenched segregation and discrimination, of high membership in the KKK, and anti-Semitism was rampant

Fascism wasn't some obscure minority interest. Ideas of racial purity and moral cleansing, and support for the concept of totalitarian government were very widespread.

That Stephen McGann thread is brilliant Red. I do blame the dumbing down of TV and the media in general for much of the mess we are in. It is one of the reasons why I like living in France - not for the TV which is also pretty dreadful (apart from Arte), but because there does seem still to be a level of respect for learning, knowledge and the ability to argue a case. I don't think you would hear the anti-expert crap applauded here.

Also when people on Mumsnet bang on endlessly about how grey and ghastly the past decades were, they might want to spare a thought for the libraries, the WEA, Local Authority evening classes and the beginnings of the OU.