OK, lets put it this way, what do we want done?

[Clairetree1]

Its all going so badly and everyone is worried, but what can be done?

Do we want another referendum and the whole Brexit thing aborted? Do we want another leader doing something different? Do we think Teresa May is doing everything that can be done?

I say "do we think" but to be honest, I don't think anything either way of Teresa May, I don't know what to think.

I don't know what could make things better at this stage

ihatemycar

As I've said before on these threads, the true older generation would NEVER have voted to leave the EU. My Irish great uncle fought and died with the Royal Fusiliers and would have thought Brexit was a crock of shit. The Italians keep his grave spick and span as a gesture of thanks.

The generation who can't remember the war or its aftermath are more likely to have voted Brexit.

A Norway+ Brexit would mean standard of living remains OK, most things carry on as normal.
The details could be worked out in a transition period, to give us the best possible deal.

A significant minority of leave voters expected this - they were not thick or racist to assume a government would form a plan for Brexit that didn't mean 50 years to see the benefits,
that would not risk wrecking the economy and living standards., all to avoid a Tory party civil war.

These leavers - like most Remainers - expected the govertnment to at least agree a workable plan;
instead May & her party have been fighting among themselves for 18 months, while Brexit - and the country's prospects - go to pot.

Noone could have expected the abysmal combination of ignorance, arrogance and party politics that have made this government totally incapable of delivering any kind of sensible Brexit.

I certainly don't blame those who have now looked at the facts, at where we are now - not where they wished us to be - and realised that the government cannot deliver anything like what was promised.
The promises were too conflicting, different things promised to different groups.

Leaving without a deal is only for people who - like the Breitbart fascist Steve Bannon - want a scorched earth revolution.

However, I think most people who want no deal don't understand technical issues like WTO rules, MFN (Most Favoured Nation) clauses in trade deals and why the EU would be forced by international law to treat the Uk as a 3rd country, even if they wished otherwise.

Read the Road Haulage Association view of what no deal means for food import and transport of other goods:

https://www.rha.uk.net/getmedia/c98d0219-fcf7-434e-b9cd-51f2ff0c316c/180730-Brexit-pull-your-finger-out-final.pdf.aspx

big choc I'm too scared to read that link

shackup Then don't read the truly scary links from Leaver Richard North's daily blog
He has been campaigning to Brexit for 30 years, working with Farage in the early UKIP years and has amasssed vast technical knowledge of the issues.

He is in despair at the catastophe he predicts if no deal happens, e.g.

drastic measures needed to ensure food supplies:

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86542

"As near as can be certain, on exit day – 29 March 2019 –
UK exports of food to EU member states are going to stop.

This is not a matter for negotiation and nor can it be avoided.
It is an inevitable consequence of the UK leaving the Single Market and becoming a "third country".
....
Bearing in mind that close-on 40 percent of our food currently comes from the Continent, if that supply chain is disrupted,
we could have serious shortages, particularly in fresh foods.

We would be confronting the very real possibility of empty supermarket shelves and people going hungry.

What the government must do, therefore, is prioritise.
That means protecting the supply chain to make sure that food imports get through.

In the longer term, we will need to sort out the export situation,
but first things first – people must be fed.

Early on, some months before exit day, food exporters – whether selling processed goods or primary produce – will need advance warning. They should be told that, from exit day until further notice, no exports to EU member states will be possible. They must be instructed to keep their vehicles away from the ports.

To enforce this, on the day,
there will need to be road blocks in place well outside the ports.

All commercial vehicles carrying food, live animals, or products of animal origin, must be kept away from the ports and the routes into them.
....
what we are going to see in Brexit is the supply system being smashed."

bigchoc please say this can be stopped 😱😱😱

@PestymcPestFace I'm moving on that's why I voted Brexit.

Show some leadership and say to the country 'we tried chaps, we really did, for 2 years but we simply cannot and will not put the country's future at risk in this reckless way. So we're staying'

This.

Of course no one in politics would say this. They care more about their own skin (May) or their protectionist agenda (Corbyn).

I can't quite warm to the Richard North guy, but at least he has loads of impact statements on his blogsite plus a clear many-stages plan which was always the only path. AND a good cartoon. Blames politician incompetence rather than failed existence of unicorns, but even so, made me laugh.

BrandNewHouse if more people engaged in political discussion and read and understood what is happening then we wouldn't be in this mess. And I am not just talking about Brexit.

I get angry with people who I don't agree with but I respect them for debating and engaging.

I am beyond furious and contemptuous of the "it's all so depressing I don't bother" brigade. Apathy is a blight on our democracy. You DH should be ashamed of his lack of engagement and especially in encouraging you to disengage.

Well done you and keep on reading, posting and making our democracy work.

Ihatemycar obviously doesn't realise that the UK was the largest beneficiary of Marshall Aid after the war contrary to how it was described even if you did study the post war period at school Unfortunately, unlike France and Germany, who used it for what it was supposed to be used for to rebuild infrastructure and plan for the future, the UK used it try to hold onto its crumbling Empire

Also that the UK, per head of population, far from being one of the biggest net contributors to the EU is one of the smallest net contributors. Iirc, Belgium is the top of the "per head contributors" table and the UK is well below both France and Germany, on a par with Ireland.

So while short term the UK leaving will create a hole in the budget, longer term, the EU may welcome the hassle of not having to deal with the UK's over-inflated sense of importance and having to try to plug the gaps in the UK Government's lack of regional development policy with ERDF contributions (Wales, Cornwall, NI and the H&I will notice the loss of those funds though because WM will sure as hell not replace them )

I mis-remembered - it was the Netherlands who are the largest per capita contributor - and it was Italy the UK was on a par with.

This one is from 2016: I've seen a more recent table, which has Ireland, with its growing Celtic Tiger economy contributing more, and Italy closer to the UK (probably because of contributions to the refugee crisis) but it's difficult for me to search on the phone.

https://inews.co.uk/news/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back/

I'm finding myself increasingly depressed on these threads. I think I'd like a balancing view to the benefits of the various possible outcomes and although most on here seem to be doom mongers (rightly or wrongly), there must be some good potential benefits that might happen, if we can get a reasonable deal? Please, pretty please can some brave person enlighten me where to look? (I've tried in the sand and I don't like it)

Blue passports.

Doctors able to qualify more quickly.

Two benefits apparently

I was being serious!

They are probably as serious and quantifiable an answer as you are going to get

It's a question that has been asked repeatedly in different (and not so different) variations frequently in these threads with nary an answer

Ihatemycar
Brexit isn't a mistake. The way it has been conducted is.
What do you think should have been done differently?

I don't think the government had any idea that the majority was going to vote out. They had no plan. That was a huge gamble and a mistake.
Before voting to leave, did you consider whether or not they had a plan? Genuinely curious about this. If you thought they must have had, what sort of plan did you think they had? I agree it was a huge gamble and a mistake. Before voting, some of the things I asked myself were "is there any precedent for this? does the government have a stated plan? is there anyone in parliament (note, not even in government) who has the vision and capability of making this a success?" I'm sure you asked yourself similar questions, so what made you think it would be anything other than shambolic? You say it was a huge gamble; did you not think that before voting?
I believe we are going to be successful as a global player.
In your view, what would be the best way of achieving this, and how long do you think it will take before we have measurable success?

Jason Please, pretty please can some brave person enlighten me where to look?
A thread on MN maybe isn't the best place to ask this. Why not write and ask your MP? However, I would caution you to be aware that you may just get some vague flannel in response. If you learn of any likely-looking positives, can you come back and let us know please?

Brexit isn't a mistake. The way it has been conducted is.

This response leads to one of my big rages against T-May. If fervent Brexiters have been at helm we would be in no better a situation, but at least Rees Mogg-Fox-Davis-Gove-Johnson would be unable to stand back & say "Oh it's the fault of people who didn't believe enough." And we would have realised a lot faster how much unicorns don't exist. May put party loyalty in front of country, coz she was so desperate to reunite the Tories. Fat lot of Good that Plan has done.

@Ihatemycar I'll never regret to LEAVE.

Never? I voted Remain, if the evidence presents its self that Leave was the right way to vote then I will change my mind. Sounds like you will never change your mind no matter how bad things get and how much evidence there is that Leave was the wrong vote.

Can't say I'm surprised you think like this.

btw. Why do you hate your car.

Jason there are some rational leavers who make a positive case for a soft brexit via the EEA/EFTA. Check out the EUreferendum.com blog. I don't agree with them, but they have a reasoned case and what appears to be a sensible and realistic plan.

Misti, thank you, I'll go have a look.

Oh shit! Political suicide for TM (EFTA) or no deal and unworkable WTO. The former please.

I would be more than happy to see political suicide for May and the whole Tory party, but I will at least give May her due, she was prepared to step up to the job, when Johnson, the obvious candidate as Cameron's successor, wasn't.