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Brexit

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Original poster

to warn of possible grounding of passenger flights and air freight from 29th March

350 replies

Clairetree1 · 01/08/2018 12:18

In order for any plane to take off or land in the UK from the 29th March, we need either

a) an agreement that we can still be included in the European aviation safety agreement, including agreeing to be bound by the European courts.

or

b) The UK civil aviation authority needs to set up its own safety agreement, write all its policies, establish it rules, negotiate with approximately 25 separate governments to come to an agreement that these rules are acceptable for planes flying into and out of their countries ( including the EU and USA), recruit and train several thousand staff, buy and adapt premises, put maintenance and safety procedures into action, to the satisfaction of said 25 governments, under go and pass international inspection and get underway.

My friend in civil aviation has been shouting louder and louder about this for over a year, as time ticks by and nothing whatsoever is done to make progress towards either a or b.

He tells me there was an article about this on the BBC website earlier, but it appears to have been taken down now, at least I can't find it.

Anybody prepared to buy air tickets for April 2019?

OP posts:
Stupomax · 01/08/2018 16:29

Quick question out of curiosity more than anything.

Will there be any difference between UK passports issued before/after Brexit? Not colour - I don't give a shit about that. But otherwise? Functionality? Anything else?

Buteo · 01/08/2018 16:31

In theory, UK travel documents should just need to move from Part II to Part I when we become a third country, but whether it is that easy in practice I don’t know. If it needs to go through some sort of ratification process then that could be a short term problem.

It may also mean that for some countries you may need a period of validity on your passport covering 3 months after you leave a country (which you don’t currently require).

LoveInTokyo · 01/08/2018 16:32

Stupomax

I guess not going through the EU/EEA/CH passport lanes at European airports would be the obvious thing.

I have noticed at quite a few airports recently that UK passports don't seem to work at the EU automatic passport gates and you have to go to the kiosk instead.

Motheroffourdragons · 01/08/2018 16:39

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

PineappleSunrise · 01/08/2018 16:39

That shouldn't be a biggie - just go in the Rest of World queue at EU national borders. British passport holders will go back to getting a stamp, too.

Buteo · 01/08/2018 16:41

And of course your EU ESTA?

PineappleSunrise · 01/08/2018 16:43

I'd expect so! So British passport holders may get a nice visa, too. (I'm looking REALLY HARD for a positive spin on this. Work with me.)

LoveInTokyo · 01/08/2018 16:44

The thing about the automatic gates seems to be new though. I’ve had a biometric passport for over three years and until a few months ago it worked fine at European airports. Suddenly, since the beginning of this year, I get an error message and am told to go to the kiosk, along with other British passport holders who also seem to be having the same issue. It might not be all airports but it’s happened to me in three different European countries this year so I wonder whether they are just quietly getting their ducks in a row.

PestymcPestFace · 01/08/2018 16:44

ESTA - we will default to third country and need a full visa. Sure it could be sorted quickly, but quick may be a few weeks or more.

Stupomax · 01/08/2018 16:45

That shouldn't be a biggie - just go in the Rest of World queue at EU national borders. British passport holders will go back to getting a stamp, too.

Oh - has the UK negotiated visa arrangements with all of the EU countries then, in the same way that the rest of the world has?

PineappleSunrise · 01/08/2018 16:47

No no, I think we will need visas too. But they may be PRETTY visas. And we'd get a stamp in our blue passports, too!

PineappleSunrise · 01/08/2018 16:48

(I may not be being entirely sincere in my joy.)

Stupomax · 01/08/2018 16:48

No no, I think we will need visas too. But they may be PRETTY visas. And we'd get a stamp in our blue passports, too!

Those stamps are very pretty Grin

LoveInTokyo · 01/08/2018 16:49

I don’t think we will need visas for short visits. We’ll get an agreement to join the ESTA scheme (like when we visit the US or Canada). Long stays and working would be completely different though. And none of it will be ready on Brexit day if we leave with no deal.

And I have no idea whether I will be allowed to work or whether my health insurance will be valid.

PestymcPestFace · 01/08/2018 16:50

Won't someone have to tell computers that we are from what is effectively a new country. With no deal we could almost be classified as refugees.

LoveInTokyo · 01/08/2018 16:53

Not refugees but we could be considered almost like stateless people as far as EEA countries and our right to be there is concerned. In the sense that stateless people have no nationality so there are no specific rules which apply to them, whereas we would have a nationality but it would be one for which there were (temporarily) no rules.

PestymcPestFace · 01/08/2018 16:57

I'm trying to remember why any one thought no deal might be an acceptable or legal outcome. Any expert leavers care to explain.

Buteo · 01/08/2018 16:59

And I have no idea whether I will be allowed to work or whether my health insurance will be valid.

Or whether your qualifications will be recognised.

LoveInTokyo · 01/08/2018 17:03

That too.

Sad
FrancinePefko42 · 01/08/2018 17:21

Very telling comments from the chief executives of BA, RyanAir and Lufthansa
www.ft.com/content/612977f0-21bb-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

“I am completely relaxed” he said, insisting the UK government’s determination to strike a deal with the EU and US would mean no flight disruption and no shareholder problems for IAG. “There will be a comprehensive Open Skies agreement. Anybody who doesn’t believe that is living in cloud-cuckoo land”.

Mr Walsh’s fellow CEOs weren’t as sanguine. Michael O’Leary, chief executive of Ryanair, whose current ownership structure would also see it classified as a non-EU controlled airline after Brexit, is predicting “a real crisis” in April 2019. “There will be disruption, partly because it is in the interests of the Germans and the French to push the ownership agenda”.

What do the Germans think? Carsten Spohr, boss of Lufthansa, made a pointedly political intervention. Flight disruption, he said, was one of the ways the airline industry could show the Brits the full consequences of the Leave vote and “that might be a good thing".

OrdinarySnowflake · 01/08/2018 17:26

There's a wrinkle in this as well - Easter. My DCs break up on 5th April. The Friday 1 week after Brexit day. (30th March falls on a Friday - and I believe Fridays are usually very busy at airports, from people going away for the weekend and people who've been working in the UK/away during the week going home)

We had planned to do our 'big' (so overseas) holiday next year at Easter rather than over the summer, but while I think it'll get sorted eventually, I'm a bit worried a week isn't enough time if we do crash out without a deal.

If you'd asked me 2 years ago, I would have said while I voted remain, I thought the idea planes wouldn't be able to fly was just 'project fear' nonesense, and while the economy would dip/house prices fall, it wouldn't be all that bad. But I didn't expect the Government to waste a year arguing amongst themselves about what sort of deal they wanted - by a year gone of the 2 years, I would expect the general deal to be sorted out with the EU and the 2nd year be spent on "details".

I genuinely didn't think at this point, less than a year to go, we still hadn't even started working out what we wanted the end deal to look like. We should be on "tinkering at the edges" of the deal, not squabbling about the general deal should be.

I'm now worried it isn't just going to be sorted in time, there's just too many bits to argue over, and we've not started yet.

Buteo · 01/08/2018 17:31

Don’t think the Flybe CCO is feeling particularly confident about what would happen in a No Deal situation.

The airline’s chief commercial officer Roy Kinnear says the big fear is that flights could be stopped next year if there is no agreement.

www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/308839/flybe-chief-voices-concerns-over-brexit

FrancinePefko42 · 01/08/2018 17:32

But Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, has insisted that aviation would be unaffected even in the event of a “no-deal” Brexit.

www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-flight-rights-airspace-uk-ireland-leo-varadkar-chris-grayling-a8456216.html

Speaking to The Independent at the Farnborough Air Show, Mr Grayling said: “The European Commission itself – earlier this year, when publishing its negotiating guidelines – said that in all circumstances, whether there is a Brexit deal or no Brexit deal, there has to be an aviation agreement

Buteo · 01/08/2018 17:36

If that is the case, then a link to the published EU negotiating document should easily clear up any uncertainty then?

LoveInTokyo · 01/08/2018 17:42

Chris Grayling is talking out of his arse.

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