Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

[FrancinePefko42]

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

I think I need to study with some of prettybird's professors to understand that. Obtuse you know....

Wow. She's really got under your skin, hasn't she?

So it seems.

YES! You have no idea what it does to a person's self worth and self esteem to be called "obtuse" by someone who has a degree....

Apparently it's posh for "thick".

Apparently, calling someone who might disagree with you "obtuse" is the killer blow in the debating chambers of St Andrews.

I am receiving therapy.

Francine, when you’re not busy being obtuse having therapy for your low self esteem caused by your lack of qualifications, any chance you could respond on the “narrow vision of democracy” point?

During the Remain campaign (in England), there were four strategies they used to "win people over"...

1. Project Fear
2. Tell people they must be stupid / thick for disagreeing
3. Tell people they must be racist
4. Tell people they're provincial / uneducated / a lower social class

I see that Strategy 2 is still the favoured one...but I see that it now combines Strategy 4 by using the word "Obtuse" (posh / pretentious for "stupid") and telling your opponents where your degree is from, and in what subject.

This actually deserves a !!!!

You'll have to remind me LoveInTokyo - what was your question?

Definition of "obtuse". Spoiler alert: it doesn't mean "thick".

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/search?filter=dictionary&query=obtuse%5D

"Respecting “the will” of 52% of those who bothered to vote in appallingly run referendum in which the winning side was subsequently found to have broken electoral law"

You have four choices

1. Accept it and move on
2. Launch an even more intensive campaign / legal challenge to have the whole result declared somehow "null and void".
3. Go back in time and run a more effective campaign. I will give you a hint here - telling potential supporters that they're thick / obtuse tends not to win over waiverers
4. Whine

Dearie me, Francine. You can't comment at all without a jibe in there, can you? The interesting thread you started has now been completely derailed by you and your petty comments. Are you 12?

Francine, do you or do you not think the other principles of democracy I referred to are important?

Prettybird when you're winning people over to the cause of an independent as Scotland, as well as mentioning your degree in Economics no less..., from St Andrews don't you know , do you carry a real dictionary with you to explain words to people or just use online ones on your phone?

"Look. When I said you're being obtuse, that doesn't mean I think you're thick or stupid or as well educated as moi ...No, no, no, let me show you exactly what obtuse means. See? It means slow to understand. Not stupid. Got that? . Now, would you like to see my Higher certificates? I carry them around with me"

Francine asks a very legitimate question in his or her OP. Her or she doesn't like the answers he or she receives, so reverts to personal attacks and changing the subject

LoveInTokyo

Francine, do you or do you not think the other principles of democracy I referred to are important

I believe in democracy yes.
I hope that's not a surprise
I disagree with your interpretations / insinuations of what causes e.g. two parties swapping power.

So do you believe that the British people should have the right to change their minds about Brexit if it becomes apparent that it is not a good idea, or that certains things which were promised by the leave campaign will not be delivered?

Do you agree with certain leavers such as Surfer (on another thread on this board) that certain media outlets should be "taken off air" because they are not sufficiently pro Brexit, or do you think a free press is an essential part of a functioning democracy, even if it says things you disagree with?

Do you think Gina Miller and the Supreme Court judges are "enemies of the people", or do you think they played an essential role in upholding our constitutional law and the government should have done more to protect them from the hate campaign in the right wing press?

prettybird concludes that any further probing of a stated of view means you're obtuse. She does not see labelling someone as obtuse as a personal jibe.

So do you believe that the British people should have the right to change their minds about Brexit if it becomes apparent that it is not a good idea, or that certains things which were promised by the leave campaign will not be delivered

Absolutely people should have the right to change their minds. I also believe in freedom of thought.

However, I do not believe in having repeated referenda until the electorate givew you the answer you want to hear.

Do you agree with certain leavers such as Surfer (on another thread on this board) that certain media outlets should be "taken off air" because they are not sufficiently pro Brexit, or do you think a free press is an essential part of a functioning democracy, even if it says things you disagree with?

The press should be free.

Do you think Gina Miller and the Supreme Court judges are "enemies of the people", or do you think they played an essential role in upholding our constitutional law and the government should have done more to protect them from the hate campaign in the right wing press?

In the order of your questions
No
Not really. I think it was driven primarily by a desire to thwart the process.
Perhaps.

And the judiciary?

And the second referendum question?

Sorry, didn't see your multiple posts.

Your view of their motivations is entirely irrelevant.

Either you think that people should have the right to bring a judicial review of decisions made by the government, and that the courts should uphold the law free from political interference, or you don't.

Gina Miller's motivations are neither here nor there. Either her legal complaint was valid, or it was not. The most senior judges in the country agreed that it was.

Absolutely people should have the right to change their minds. I also believe in freedom of thought.

However, I do not believe in having repeated referenda until the electorate givew you the answer you want to hear.

Presumably you would agree that a referendum on the actual Brexit terms once they are known would have far more legitimacy than the 2016 referendum which was based on £350m a week for the NHS and everyone having their own unicorn then?

It's pointless arguing with a DM reader. Obtuse and unwilling to accept undeniable facts.

Yes to Scottish devolution asap and then in the fullness of time, I can have a Scottish/EU passport.

Thanking you!

Great sentiment Kool, but we have devolution.* It's independence next!

*For the moment, though WM are doing their best to undermine it via the Withdrawal Bill and legal action in the Supreme Court. Another demonstration of the contempt in which they hold us, and another reason we need to leave