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Brexit

Scottish Nationalists: Why leave one union to join another?

674 replies

FrancinePefko42 · 21/07/2018 10:04

From my understanding, the primary motive for Scotland leaving the United Kingdom is to have full autonomy as independent sovereign state - with all the freedom that would confer.

Why does being closely tied to Brussels have greater appeal than retaining the ties with England?

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FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 14:46

Presumably you would agree that a referendum on the actual Brexit terms once they are known would have far more legitimacy than the 2016

If you want a second referendum, your solution is simple. Elect a LibDem government.

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FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 15:35

LoveInTokyo

Democracy does not mean:

All UK voters being adequately represented in parliament and having an equal opportunity to influence who forms the next government

Yes I agree with this statement.

Scotland is over represented in Westminster. You have, afaik, more MPs per head of population than e.g. Yorkshire

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Calyx · 26/07/2018 15:58

"Scotland is over represented in Westminster. You have, afaik, more MPs per head of population than e.g. Yorkshire"

That may be the case but Scotland is supposed to be an 'equal partner' and Yorkshire isn't even a country, it's part of the 'equal partner' country called England.

Scotland's MPs are consistently voted down by England's MPs on issues to do with Scotland while being unable to vote on English issues.

Scotland's MPs are also consistently brayed at, heckled and shouted down in Westminster.

Them being there is a waste of their time and we need our independence so our MPs of all parties can get on with things for Scotland.

prettybird · 26/07/2018 16:10

Francine is doing a good job (yet again) of illustrating why we in Scotland want out of one Union where we are always overruled and/or ignored but are ok about staying in/joining a different Union where we would actually have a voice and a real opportunity to be heard and influence policy Grin - and thus answering his or her own question from the OP Wink

HirplesWithHaggis · 26/07/2018 16:49

Well, I'm glad that's settled, then. Grin

DGRossetti · 26/07/2018 16:56

weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

Back in 2014, if independence campaigners had urged people to vote Yes warning that the British state would be stockpiling supplies of food and vital medicines, that it would be making contingency plans for the lights going out, and that ports were threatened with gridlock and planes might not fly, we would have been accused of ridiculous scaremongering. Even the frothiest and zoomiest of anti-independence campaigners who predicted all sorts of dire events for an independent Scotland didn't dare claim that the country could be facing food shortages and a return to rationing. But that's exactly where we are in the British state this last summer before Brexit.

Back in 2014, if independence campaigners had told the people of Scotland that the only way that Scotland could be certain of membership of the EU would be by voting for independence, the British nationalists would have ridiculed us and called us liars. It was only by voting to remain a part of the UK, they claimed with the certitude of the self-righteous, that Scotland could ever retain its place amongst the family of European nations. And that place was as a subordinate adjunct to a UK that punched above its weight in the corridors of Brussels. Yet here we are now, four years on, leaving the EU despite the fact that Scotland voted to remain by a much larger margin than it voted to remain a part of the UK, and the Republic of Ireland has vastly more influence on the course of Brexit than the UK government does. Scotland doesn't even get a say, never mind a place at the top table. Estonia, with a population a quarter the size of Scotland's, gets a veto, Scotland gets vetoed whenever it opens its mouth. How's that punching above your weight working out for you Scotland?

Back in 2014, if independence campaigners had warned that instead of strengthening devolution as it had promised, the British state would be doing its utmost to undermine the devolution settlement and would be taking the Scottish Parliament to the Supreme Court in order to overturn a bill that Holyrood had passed with the support of all parties except the Tories, we would have been accused of being hysterical liars. It seems highly unlikely that the current devolution settlement can survive in the unitary state that the Conservatives seem to have in mind for the UK after it has left the European Union. Yet Scotland didn't vote to leave the EU, Scotland didn't vote for the devolution settlement to be changed, Scotland didn't vote for a fundamental restructuring of the British state that harms Scotland's interests. Worse, Scotland wasn't even consulted. But that's exactly where we are in this summer of devodeath before Brexit.

Back in 2014, if independence campaigners had warned that Scottish products were going to be rebranded as British, and we'd see British shortbread, British whisky, British square slice and British Aberdeen Angus in our shops, all plastered with Union flegs, we'd have been accused of being petty minded scaremongerers. But Scottish products are at threat as never before. Brexit threatens to strip distinctively Scottish products of the protection that they currently enjoy, and any manufacturer anywhere in the world will be able to sell an alcoholic drink branded as Scotch whisky, or Stornoway Black Pudding made with genetically modified American crops. But that's exactly where we are in this last summer of Scottish shopping before Brexit.

Back in 2014, if independence campaigners had cast aspersions on the solidity of British democracy, we'd have been howled down in rage. But we've seen dodgy donations and dark money funding the Scottish Conservatives. We've seen allegations of Russian involvement in the Brexit campaign. We've seen an official leave campaign which drove a coach and horses through electoral law and which received a minor slap on the wrist in the form of a fine that was a tiny fraction of the money that it had illegally spent. This is where we are now, being dragged out of the EU on the basis of an unfair vote.

Back in 2014, if independence campaigners had told voters in Scotland that within a few short years the far right would be soaring in UK opinion polls, that the Tories would have become all but indistinguishable from Ukip, and that Tory politicians were calling for the treason laws to be extended in order to prosecute people in favour of the EU or supportive of Scottish independence, we'd have been laughed at. Better Together had told us that the UK was a bulwark of tolerance and moderation, and our only protection against political extremism. No one is laughing now, as we face the spectre of a resurgent far right, one that's wrapped in the Union fleg, one that has grown under the cover of a British nationalism whose main distinctive feature is the unshakeable belief that it's not nationalist at all. This is where we are now, because four years ago Scotland voted no.

Back in 2014, we were told by the Labour party that it stood for devolution, that it was the guarantor of Scotland's interests within the British state. And yet despite the unfolding horror, despite the utter incompetence, the sheer ineptitude, the total failure of British politics, despite the undermining of the devolution settlement, despite the thousands of jobs which might be lost, despite the hundreds of thousands of lives which face disruption, despite the humiliation of the UK on the global stage, despite the rise of the extreme right and the destruction of democratic accountability, there are still Labour politicians in Scotland who say that the worst thing to come out of all of this is that it reopens the question of Scottish independence. This is where we are now, with a Labour party exposed as a mouthpiece for the British state which abstains instead of opposing the Tories.

Back in 2014, a lot of people still believed in the promises and reassurances of Westminster. Now even those who trusted them before know that a vow from Westminster isn't worth the newsprint it's printed on. This is where we are now, on the verge of a second independence referendum, on the verge of an independent Scotland, because we were lied to, betrayed, taken for fools, taken for granted. Westminster's tragedy is that it only has itself to blame, but Westminster's tragedy will be Scotland's opportunity. This is where we are now.

Independence will come about because of the shortcomings and failures of those who say that they love the British state. In years to come we will look back on 2014 as the year that the British state threw away its last chance to keep Scotland within the UK. 2014 isn't where we are now, and that's why the next independence referendum will have a very different outcome to the first.

Motheroffourdragons · 26/07/2018 17:27

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 26/07/2018 17:29

FTAOD I was quoting the link at the top. It's been a long hot day, and I'm way past trying to deal with MNs quixotic formatting.

HirplesWithHaggis · 26/07/2018 17:46

Yup, Mr Kavanagh is particularly eloquent today. :)

Walkingdeadfangirl · 26/07/2018 18:26

I am pretty sure Scotland doesn't have to pay a subscription to the UK to be part of the Union. If they join the EU as a separate country they would almost definitely have to pay for the privilege.

I know its hard enough to get shops in England to accept Scottish money, am confident if they left the UK the rest of the UK would just stop accepting it completely.

I also find the idea that Scotland doesn't have a voice in Westminster ridiculous. For example Scottish MPs get to decide what happens to schools in England, but English MPs have no say at all over schools in Scotland. Scottish MPs have more voice than English ones.

DGRossetti · 26/07/2018 18:36

Walkingdeadfangirl

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_votes_for_English_laws

Just more proof that Leavers are living in the past.

FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 18:39

prettybird
Francine is doing a good job (yet again) of illustrating why we in Scotland want out of one Union where we are always overruled

"why we in Scotland want out" Hmm
Do you speak for everyone in Scotland?

"Union where we are always overruled"?

Always?

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Walkingdeadfangirl · 26/07/2018 18:45

DGRossetti I guess you dont know anything about EVEL, despite the name it does not mean Scottish MPs do not vote on English matters. However English MPs do not vote on devolved Scottish matters.

Just more proof ScotNats are spreading fake news.

FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 18:45

Calyx
On Scottish MPs in Westminster...

Them being there is a waste of their time and we need our independence so our MPs of all parties can get on with things for Scotland

If it's a waste of time, why do they bother travelling down to Scotland to sit in Westminster at all? Sinn Fein MPs don't.

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FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 18:55

LoveInTokyo
Having anything other than a binary choice between the Tories and Labour -
whose policies are virtually identical these days.

Nothing stopping you or anyone else setting up your own political parties and offering the electorate more choices in every constituency in the land.

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YeTalkShiteHen · 26/07/2018 18:59

I also find the idea that Scotland doesn't have a voice in Westminster ridiculous. For example Scottish MPs get to decide what happens to schools in England, but English MPs have no say at all over schools in Scotland. Scottish MPs have more voice than English ones

You haven’t heard of EVEL then? English votes for English laws, but the DUP can vote. It’s just the SNP that can’t.

And exactly what good has this so called voice in Westminster done? Nothing so far as I can see, beyond providing the media with MPs to mock when they try to implement change. Oh and giving the odious little shit that is Bercow a chance to wield his power stick and kick Ian Blackford out for making a very good fucking point

FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 18:59

HirplesWithHaggis
Why would we want to be part of that [Brexit] when we voted against it?

You didn't vote in the EU referendum as Scotland. You voted as the United Kingdom.

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FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 19:02

YeTalkShiteHen
And exactly what good has this so called voice in Westminster done? Nothing so far as I can see, beyond providing the media with MPs to mock when they try to implement change. Oh and giving the odious little shit that is Bercow a chance to wield his power stick and kick Ian Blackford out for making a very good fucking point

Why do your MPs bother taking their seats? Why not just stay away like Sinn Fein?

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YeTalkShiteHen · 26/07/2018 19:06

@FrancinePefko42 was that a serious question? Confused or just a demonstration that despite 19 pages you still haven’t a clue?

Do you even understand why SF don’t take their seats? Or that the elected SNP MPs have every right to be in parliament?

Your attitude seems to be that Scotland (and NI) should just shut up and do as they’re told. People with attitudes like yours are the reason there is Scottish nationalism in the first place!

YeTalkShiteHen · 26/07/2018 19:08

That said, I’ll bite. To make noise, to make it known that the bullshit spouted by the Tories and the promises made before Indy ref haven’t been delivered. To remind the government that the UK is more than the south of England.

FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 19:12

Keeptrudging
"Why would nurses from Sri Lanka choose to come and work here? The average wage in Sri Lanka is $1,619"

Because, like all economic migrants, they might be attracted by the opportunity to earn more here.

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FrancinePefko42 · 26/07/2018 19:21

YeTalkShiteHen

No. My question was prompted by your own very emphatically expressed sentiment. .

And exactly what good has this so called voice in Westminster done?

Those were the words you used. If you don't think they do any good at all then it is reasonable to ask "Why bother attending?"

It seems you have now decided that Scottish MPs do indeed do some "good" after all... eg (and using your own words again) "To make noise".

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YeTalkShiteHen · 26/07/2018 19:25

Oh dear you really don’t get it do you Francine? At all. Even after it’s been spelled out repeatedly. Never mind. It doesn’t really matter that you can’t/won’t understand.

Keeptrudging · 26/07/2018 19:42

FrancinePefko42 you already responded to a (tiny, highly edited) portion of my comment yesterday. I'll post the full comment again, to refresh your memory.

Why would nurses from Sri Lanka choose to come and work here, where housing is very over-priced and in short supply? They can already work here with a visa. Quick Google suggests average wage in Sri Lanka is $1,619. This doesn't suggest it will be affordable for them to pay for visa/flights.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 26/07/2018 19:52

YeTalkShiteHen
I guess you dont know anything about EVEL then, despite the name it does not mean Scottish MPs do not vote on English matters.
However English MPs do not vote on devolved Scottish matters.

Just more proof ScotNats are Talkin Shite.

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