What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

I agree dinosaurkisses ...where are the mass movement, on-the-ground protests?

I think farmers/trade union in the Republic feel that their ministers are making the best of a bad hand...but I am surprised at the lack of community level organisation in the North. Is it fear of sticking their heads above the parapet...and that their names will go on a "list" somewhere.......

to make out we're running around armed to the teeth and bombing the fuck outta the place already is in bad faith.
I agree. There is massive potential for huge amounts of violence from a tiny proportion of people, IMO. And also, IMO, most people in NI are more desperate for peace, and have stronger pacifistic tendencies, than average Europeans. Growing up in a warzone taught us how awful war really is.
(BTW Amalfi did HQ get back to you about that matter from last week? I finally got an answer and have been meaning to compare notes with you. I've got to nip out now but will PM you later if that's okay?)

Somerville not a dicky bird. Please do pm later as I'm interested in their reasoning

As for violence, it's likely in Belfast, Derry, London and anywhere in the world for any reason. But I feel that if it al did all flare up again the majority of us would be willing and ready to nip it in the bud by any means necessary

goes back under my stone before I'm told off again for having an opinion on my country

but to make out we're running around armed to the teeth and bombing the fuck outta the place already is in bad faith.

Do you not understand the difference between 'this is likely to happen because it's happened before' and 'this is the way we live right now?

It's impossible to lie about the situation because terrorism is reported upon. We can't make it any more or less than what it is at present. The present circumstances more than illustrate that 'peace' is fragile and there are still a significant number of people who would kill over these issues (proportionately small perhaps but it really doesn't matter because you only need a few guys with a bomb).

This question of why there aren’t wide-spree protests in NI about Brexit hasn’t been addressed yet. I know on this thread we’re from a mixture of communities, and have had varied experiences. Amongst my own, the answer is that protesting isn’t really our thing; Bloody Sunday loomed so large over our lives that we learned early that the best tactics were guerrilla. Not out there, in your face, where you could be dragged off and imprisoned without charge.
There is also something of a fatalistic feeling over it all. (I don’t share this - I’ve lived abroad too long.) One of my cousins who loves on the border said recently “Of course the English will shit over the GFA. They’ve always shit all over us. And we always fight back.” Now, he wasn’t in the IRA back in the day, and he won’t join armed resistance now. But he sure as hell won’t fill in a form to cross the border with some goods from his farm. And he’ll open the gate in the middle of a field to let wee Sean his friend’s godson through with that vanload of stuff that he doesn’t want picking up on the new English camera.

That’s how my community protests. It always was. Even in the worst of the Troubles,
only a maximum of 2% of Catholics were actively involved in the IRA. Most people never touched a gun, but still, 3000 people died.

As sensible people have been saying, the solution right now is to cancel Brexit or at worst, to have GB and NI in the CU and SM.

I think the protests aren't happening because, like everyone else, Northern Irish people are scratching their heads, waiting to see what's on the table to protest about and working out what they least don't want in this dreadfully messy situation. With things changing from week to week, your placard would be out of date before the ink had dried.

Also, loyalties are not cleanly divided. Most are in a situation they didn't vote for, both in terms of Brexit and because there is no functioning devolved parliament. People are pulled in different ways so its difficult to order themselves into groups sharing allegiances- eg. loyalists who wanted to remain in the EU were probably completely fine with the open border but may now want to leave in order to stay aligned with mainland Britain (in which case they'd be agreeable to a hard border) but like many other remainers they may still hope Theresa May to somehow manages a soft brexit (in which case the border could stay open because the whole of the UK would have regulatory alignment with the EU). And that's just one scenario.

I think there's also a bit of nonplussed disbelief at the thought that Britain would land us right back where we started. It's the ultimate betrayal and many are still hoping no one would be that stupid.

Most people never touched a gun, but still, 3000 people died.

And that's the thing. When we talk about violence erupting in Northern Ireland, we're not suggesting that most Northern Irish people are violent. It's not a slur on the province.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2018/07/i-m-tory-mep-hardline-brexiteers-my-party-are-destroying-british-union#amp

I'm not sure what the Hong Kong deal was.

Excellent article, thanks for sharing. It was obvious right from the outset of the DUP’s pro-Brexit stance that paradoxically their “allegiance” to UK Brexiteers would in practice harm the union they hold so dear. I always thought it was so short sighted of them. But I suppose they were stuck between a rock and a hard place as a pro- EU stance would have the same effect. Rees Mogg said today a no deal is imminent. Varadkar says May will have to backtrack on her red lines. An almighty mess. I foresee a United Ireland happening in ten-twenty years but only after much upheaval, probably another spate of ‘troubles’. In which case I will sell up and move somewhere else!

Somebody else shared it on the Daily Mail thread, can't take the credit! I don't know how the DUP can be so short-sighted.

www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-will-have-hardest-border-in-europe-if-uk-doesnt-reach-brexit-deal-ally-of-merkel-warns-37142875.html

I'm beginning to think reunification is actually the only solution.

Apile Doesn't it bother you somewhat that loyalists will turn violent and people will probably start dying if that happens? Plus Ireland is not in a position to fund the north so there will be hardship as well as violence in the province?

An answer for the rest of Britain perhaps) and I'm sure those who voted Leave don't give a flying fuck) but the word 'sacrificial lamb ' come to mind. I say that as someone who would love a united Ireland.

If there was a chance to bloodlessly unite ireland I would love that.

But enough people have died. It’s not worth another drop of blood.

The GFA has provided a fine solution. It must be preserved somehow.

What really gets my goat is whatever goes ahead will probably screw Northern Ireland over and upset the very fragile peace we have, causing the deaths of innocent people - maybe a father is shot, maybe a petrol bomb put through the letterbox of a house with children inside. And the people who knew this was a possibility will condemn the violence in the most sanctimonious way and complain about 'political point scoring' if anyone points out it was the direct result of irresponsible political decisions.

The people in NI are entitled to a UK passport. If they are unhappy they can move.

@RussiaRussia

Eh? Can you expand your (I’m going to be charitable here) thought?

Why should they, when this was settled 20 years age? Why should people have to sell their homes, find new jobs, pull their kids out of school, etc etc for a matter that was sorted in the 90s?

Who are you getting at Russia? Are you saying that the DUP should up sticks and move?

My suspicion is that @RussiaRussia doesn’t understand the situation is just brainfarting a bit.

"The people in NI are entitled to a UK passport. If they are unhappy they can move."

Quite true...they probably could do that.

Sell their home, where they and their family have lived for hundreds of years. Take their children out of schools and move (where...into your house RussiaRussia?).
Get kids places in new schools- cos that's easy isn't it?
Give up their job and transfer to company HQ in London, or Nottingham, or Leeds, or Chelmsford....
Be fully accepted as British living and working in England (and I make an educated guess that you are English, as I don't think a Northern Irish person or Scottish person would utter your comment).

Would you do that RussiaRussia? Would you up sticks and move to Northern Ireland?

heartsease of course, of course and of course. I fear blood shed either way. I fear it if there's a hard border. I fear it if there isn't.

I fear people in the rest of Ireland not caring. I fear people in the rest of Ireland caring so much they return to being involved in bloodshed. I fear that people who consider themselves British will feel isolated and disenfranchised. I fear that nationalists won't really be considered to be Irish, both within NI and the rest of Ireland and the EU.

My only connection is being Irish, I don't live in NI and I don't have romantic notions about a united Ireland. I also fear the economic hardship that would ensue.

I'm not coming at it from the British angle of 'it's in Ireland it doesn't matter'.

I'm angry at that article I posted. I'm angry at the ignorance of that man safely over in his reunified country. Ireland can't impose a hard border. For him it's all about chlorinated chicken. He clearly couldn't give a fuck about Ireland. I'm horrified that he has such a hardline attitude. It makes me twice as fearful.

The only thing anyone can think of is N.I. gets some kind of special status to stay in the EU or a Norway type deal, with a border in the Irish Sea - but TM and the DUP are against that. I'd imagine as the majority of people in NI voted remain they'd be happy enough with it, regardless. Maybe another vote in Northern Ireland for leave or remain? An independent state?

When I said reunification was the only answer - I fear reunification is the only answer. I don't want NI to get fucked over once again. I don't want there to be an imbalance of power.

I feel sick.