What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

PaddyF0dder

I said "ugly issue", not "ugly face".

And it is ugly. The Scottish referendum campaign was ugly and divisive, it happened less than four years ago, there was a strong vote to remain in the UK and that should have settled it.

Perhaps it shouldn't have been held until after the Brexit referendum (which was more or less already on the cards in 2014), because part of the basis on which Scotland voted to remain in the UK was that if they left the UK they would have to leave the EU. Now they're being forced out of the EU against their will anyway.

If Scottish independence happens now and Scotland seek to rejoin the EU, there will have to be a hard border between Scotland and England. It's a total mess.

beanaseireann

Because Norway is in the single market, which Theresa May and the hard Brexiters have ruled out as an option for the UK.

(Perhaps after holding a referendum just in Northern Ireland to check whether that's what a majority wants.)

What Northern Ireland wanted in the Brexit Referendum meant diddly squat, so why start asking us now?

FGS this is a mess of England's making that the people on this island will suffer from. The apathy before the referendum has turned to outright contempt.

IMO a border in the Irish Sea is the best out of a series of terrible options. It isn't right, but a land border is just not possible.

If we decided to stay in the single market and customs union, it would resolve the Irish border issue.

It would make leaving utterly pointless which it is anyway but it would resolve the border issue.

The whole of Brexit is a fuck up of epic proportions. What I don't comprehend is the lack of integrity of the politicians in the UK who are trying to push it through rather than turn around and tell the public the truth, which is that it is a disastrous idea with severe economic consequences. If they could hold another referendum it would be great. Surely the fact that the Brexit campaign lied means the result is null and void. Otherwise, I am afraid everyone is fucked. Us in Ireland - even though we didn't choose this - because business pathways will be massively affected. But the worse consequences of all will be for poor people in England and people everywhere on zero hour contracts and the like. Anyone who voted for Brexit, why the fuck did you do it? It is incomprehensible and I am afraid the future is dark. This new isolationist politics are scary. We need to come together and the EU is a good club to be in. I don't know what will happen to the border but I know it will not be good. I don't think it's for Ireland to solve.

Norway and Switzerland can manage -why can't the UK and Ireland work it out ?

Norway and Switzerland both have borders with the EU with customs checkpoints.

The Scottish referendum campaign was ugly and divisive, it happened less than four years ago, there was a strong vote to remain in the UK and that should have settled it.

55/45 is hardly a strong vote...

It's stronger than 52/48...

Full disclosure: I’m irish, live in Scotland, and pro-EU and pro-Scottish Indy. I voted accordingly in the referenda.

The Indy Red was indeed divisive, but hardly toxic. The outcome was indeed decisive and, while I’d like to see another Indy Ref at some point, it shouldn’t be done too soon. Unless there’s a tangible change in terms of course.

There are far, far more divisive topics out there than Scottish independence. I’ve got fond memories of getting involved in campaigning for Indy, which was quite a lefty liberal inclusive movement (although was portrayed rather differently by some aspects of the media.

I don’t view myself as a nationalist at all. I’m against borders in general, and view the idea of separate insular nation states as backward. I was pro-Indy because of the lefty liberal Scandinavian ideals espoused by the movement, and the idea of Scotland embracing the EU and become an outward looking country.

But I digress.

There’s a real and valid case for second Indy Ref, particularly if Brexit proves to be the sort of clusterfuck that is now looking likely. But I’d worry that a quick turnaround on a second referendum would kill the independence movement dead. So we’d need to be careful about pushing it through without an obvious change in public opinion in favour of independence.

Amalfimamma You don't appear to have anything currently to go on other than anecdotal information about your extended family. I'm sorry but that, and a childhood in Northern Ireland, does not give you a solid base for evaluating the risk of potential violence. You're complaining that others are forming ill-informed opinions but you're not here either and it's allowing you to be sloppy and complacent in your risk assessments (while claiming you're an expert). Which is dangerous, in my view. But well done for surviving the murder triangle.

Norway and Switzerland can manage -why can't the UK and Ireland work it out ?

It's completely different!! As far as I know, Norway and Switzerland don't have ongoing political tensions and a long-running history of violent bloodshed regarding their borders and exactly what land belongs to them as a country. They don't have half the population of adjoining countries considering themselves ideologically Swiss etc. Their borders are not already charged issues in and of themselves and the people policing them are unlikely to be picked off by sniper rifles.

And you anticipate all that being done without any bloodshed PaddyF0dder? You've never actually lived in the north. Have you.

@heartsease68

I love how people need to submit a CV and a complete housing history to have a valid opinion!

No, my suggestion would likely result in disaster. Which is why it’s not a practical or sensible suggestion. Unfortunately there are no practical solutions coming from politicians either.

I’m well aware that any attempt at unifying realms would likely result in bloodshed. I’m also firmly of the opinion that more than enough blood has been shed about that border already. It’s not worth another life being lost. Which is exactly why the GFA is so vital, and why Brexit is such a terrible idea.

Huh. By realms I meant to type Ireland. Although “realms” is a wonderful and not entirely inaccurate autocorrect.

Don't float these ideas without adding that it would probably result in deaths, PaddyF0dder or people will assume they are options.

Thanks dad.

I would love to think NI is past violence. But a few years ago Belfast city council voted to stop flying the union flag every day, and I was nearly killed in the aftermath - think multiple bricks thrown through the windows of the car I was driving.

So I think assuming NI can survive something as big as Brexit without violence is sadly naive,wishful thinking.

You don't appear to have anything currently to go on other than anecdotal information about your extended family. I'm sorry but that, and a childhood in Northern Ireland, does not give you a solid base for evaluating the risk of potential violence. You're complaining that others are forming ill-informed opinions but you're not here either and it's allowing you to be sloppy and complacent in your risk assessments (while claiming you're an expert). Which is dangerous, in my view. But well done for surviving the murder triangle.

I am currently sitting in my home (as in I own it) in Tyrone. Please feel free to drop in for a cup of tea and to check out my references for the position of having an opinion on what happens to us with brexit.

I hope I meet your standards of what's expected for the position.

Another eye roll to the sheer arrogance of your comments.

Kind regards

Amalfi mamma who doesn't give a fiddlers about what you think of me even though you implied I'm a bigot

You live in Tyrone? What, under a stone? Do you not think there's enough complacent under-estimating of the danger we're in without the locals adding to it?

You live in Tyrone? What, under a stone? Do you not think there's enough complacent under-estimating of the danger we're in without the locals adding to it?

Is that you willy Frazer? Fortunately we all have houses in Tyrone. No living under stones here.

Go back to reciting ulster is British as you were more credible then, now you're just being sectarian

Since there has already been an increase in violence I think arguing that there won't be is pointless. Sure, people can disagree on the precise reasons for it. The fact that Stormont hasn't sat for eighteen months is part of it - I know people who are furious about the imminent direct rule. And that is something which isn't independent of Brexit - I think there's little doubt that the DUP feel emboldened by their power in Westminster and thus have no motive for compromise at home. Likewise, Sinn Fein know that if they can get the other side to tear up the GFA then they may well have a quicker route to United Ireland than waiting for majorities in both NI and ROI.

So both parties are playing cat and mouse to some extent. And both communities have an extremist fringe who haven't entirely given up the violence and return to it when they feel under threat.

I do think the vast majority of people in NI who have a strong ideological opinion want their community defended politically but don't want any further returns to violence - that's why they voted as to remain, and that's why in polls the support for the GFA is higher than ever. However, there is a long tradition in my community (Derry) of protest when our rights are attacked, and I'm hearing a lot of talk amongst all the generations of their plans in the case of border infrastructure. Everyone has their own line for where peaceful protest ends and civil disobedience begins, and from there it isn't a big jump to violence. (For example, as a pacifist I wouldn't tear down a camera but I would - and will - lay down on the 'border' road that splits a family farm in half to try to stop a camera being installed.)

The whole thing is a mess and despite, as previously Home secretary, knowing how complicated it is, Theresa May keeps making it worse.

Good point about the potential for civil disobedience, Somerville. I’d agree with you- I’m no republican, but if a border went up I’m absolutely not going to respect it as far as I peacefully can.

I don’t think it’s even as straightforward as people drawing a link between unionist > automatically supports a hard border. The open border has been working nicely for everyone up here for years. Wee jaunts down to watch the international rugby, occasional shopping trips in a nice big capital, watching Ed Sheeran at Croke Park every few years. There’s no negative connotations of the open border at the moment.

I don’t know anyone from my unionist family who is advocating a hard border, even my very misguided dad who voted for Brexit in the first place.

What I am finding hard to swallow is the lack of campaigning about this- where are the trade unions, farmers associations or community relation organisations and why is there no organised campaign to stop a hard border? Where are the protests? Why is this not the bane of every Stormont minister’s existence?

Somerville there has been an increase in violence, especially in the run up to the marching season, as there is every year and a true potent to go back 40 years in case of a hard border, but to make out we're running around armed to the teeth and bombing the fuck outta the place already is in bad faith.

Actually no, it's an out and out lie.

If the border issue isn’t sorted there will be no deal.

So it’s an EEA type deal (for Northern Ireland at least) or no deal then. And no deal means a hard border.