What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

Amalfimamma

No one needs to take these people seriously.They need to take their weapons seriously. It doesn't surprise me at all that the people willing to take up arms do not have aunties on mumsnet (or aunties or are willing to talk about their bigoted relatives). That doesn't mean the sectarian element in Northern Ireland has lost its teeth. You'd be a fool to think it does. And if you actually lived in areas where sectarianism is still a problem (rather than pontificating anecdotes from somewhere else entirely), you'd know it.

If there is a hard Brexit there will be a hard border. Ireland/EU will police it on one side to stop unregulated goods coming in from outside the EU and the U.K. will police it from the other side to stop illegal immigrants coming in.

Life will be disrupted along the border. But there will be plenty of other disruption that comes with a hard Brexit.

a final flurry of resistance

There is no 'final' about it. If there's one thing you can be sure about, this problem is going nowhere. People still care.

Ireland/EU will police it on one side to stop unregulated goods coming in from outside the EU and the U.K. will police it from the other side to stop illegal immigrants coming in.

When you say 'police', do you mean army or actual police? Do you mean checkpoints? Because there are a few traditions regarding those on the border.

The people who voted for Brexit should have been told what happens to people who police an internal Irish border and people who live on that border. They probably wouldn't have given a fuck but they should have been at least informed.

There is no 'final' about it. If there's one thing you can be sure about, this problem is going nowhere. People still care.

Some of us on this thread may be underestimating how many people still care, but I think you are overestimating how many people would truly be motivated to violence.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.

I am not denying the existence of weapons, or that there aren't enough people to do real damage, or that lots of people still care. But I have seen first hand small communities fade away. People grew up, they had kids, they got jobs, they went out and saw the world, and now they are not interested in fighting. The old guard is dying out. Maybe in larger towns and cities the affect is smaller, but it is happening.

On the U.K. side I think it will be actually police if NI becomes the easiest route to get into the U.K. illegally.
On the Irish side I think it would only be physically policed if NI threatens Ireland’s regulated agriculture.

I do know what the reality of that means. I lived on the border in the 70s and 80s. Family on both sides.

This is the most grave part of Brexit.

Certainly a hard Brexit will devastate whole industries and harm countless lives. But only in NI will be people face death and destruction.

I’m fucking disgusted at Brexit, Brexit voters, Brexit politicians, the whole process. They have willingly and ignorantly fucked the Irish peace process in search for some meaningless jingoistic dream of control.

sheep

The problem is, I've grown up knowing that it doesn't take very many violent people to cause a great deal of violence (when they're armed), especially when they're supported in a sense by a lot of people who do care about the issue. And many local people really do. As much as they might want peace, they have red lines in their thinking that lends implicit support to those who would like to take up arms.

inniu

I just feel sick at the thought of policemen in Ireland returning to an age when they're afraid for their lives. It could well end up being the British army - and the British army on the border is going to remind people how much they care about these issues. Just when, yes, some people were starting to forget.

policemen in Northern Ireland

Seriously you think that people in Ireland shouldn't have a say in a vote that would have a deep impact on them! Hell no. If there ever was a vote about NI joining Ireland then as an Irish citizen i want a vote

I agree with everything heartease68 has written on this. The PSNI will not put their officers in the line of danger by policing a border, no way. Also there will be civil disobedience all over NI and maybe the south too. I for one will go out to protest civilly. We will not accept any return to a hard or even partially hard border on the island of island.

Paddyfodder you honestly think that this will only harm lives in NI, don't you remember the bombs that killed people in parts of Ireland and Britain. I do I was young but I remember the fear i felt watching the news. I can't imagine how those that were impacted by It felt and those that lived through it every day in NI.

Norway + would have worked. It could have been delivered and palatable to both sides. But idiot May chose to promise the undeliverable.

heartsease68

It doesn't surprise me at all that the people willing to take up arms do not have aunties on mumsnet (or aunties or are willing to talk about their bigoted relatives).

And if you actually lived in areas where sectarianism is still a problem (rather than pontificating anecdotes from somewhere else entirely), you'd know it

I grew up in a place called "the murder triangle" in the 70s and 80s. No pontificating from these parts

We will not accept any return to a hard or even partially hard border on the island of island

The problem is there really isn't a lot of options. The EU requires countries to secure it's borders with external countries. And unless the UK wants to have zero tariffs for every product for every country WTO will require the UK to secure it's borders too.

The UK should stay in the customs union thus no need for a border or give special status to NI. Obviously the DUP supporters are opposed to this and they have the power at the minute. But most of NI voted remain. The DUP must not veto the popular will. Maybe with the potential loss of Ian Paisley Junior’s seat the pendulum might swing but otherwise there IS NO working solution in answer to the original OP.

The UK should stay in the customs union

A customs union does not equal no border.

fullfact.org/europe/how-eu-works-what-customs-union/

Maybe with the potential loss of Ian Paisley Junior’s seat the pendulum might swing but otherwise there IS NO working solution in answer to the original OP.

There is no potential loss of Paisley’s seat. His majority is absolutely enormous.

If Theresa May hadn't fucked up with her general election last year then surely the best solution would be for Northern Ireland to remain in the single market and customs union and for the hard border to go in the Irish sea. (Perhaps after holding a referendum just in Northern Ireland to check whether that's what a majority wants.)

But given the politics of Northern Ireland even that would be complicated. And of course, Scotland would immediately jump on the bandwagon wanting the same, so the ugly issue of Scottish independence would be firmly back on the agenda.

Bloody Cameron should have told the Brexiters they could have their precious referendum once they'd come up with a workable proposal for Northern Ireland and not a moment before.

Ooh, Barnier just mentioned Gibraltar.

Says need to agree on I/NI backstop
Military bases in Cyprus
Gibraltar

Points out how little time left..

Open to any solution for the Irish border that uphold GFA in all dimensions.q

@LoveInTokyo

“...the ugly face of Scottish independence...”

Huh?

There seems to be only one solution:

1 - leave it as it is
2 - work backwards through all the logical implications of (1)
3 - from the outcome of (2), conclude that that, despite the posturing of the politicians, every conceivable form of Brexit is unworkable
4 - based on the outcome of (3), call off Brexit, which wasn't what the people of Northern Ireland voted for, anyway, and which an increasing number of the rest of us don't want either.
5 - relax with , or and

Yup^

Assuming of course that the EU would let us withdraw A50....

Norway and Switzerland can manage -why can't the UK and Ireland work it out ?