What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

purits SERIOUSLY does it have to be spelled out?

That the Irish should “grow up” implying they are all immature.

That the Irish should “stop fighting” which is stereotyping everyone as sectarian.

That the Irish should join “the rest of the civilised world” ie the Irish are not civilised.

That “the rest of the world” is interchangable with “decent folk”which implies that the Irish are not decent.

That, along with your complete inability to try to empathise with Irish people, and your colonialist attitude, is rather offensive.

heartsease68

The fact you seem to think ulster is ni and ni is ulster is completely wrong. Ulster is a province with 9 counties, 6 of which make up the ni state let the other 3 are part of ireland.

To ignore this and to portray ulster as British is extremely misleading and lacks knowledge.

Or nails your fleg to the mast as it were

Hold a border poll - let the people of NI decide if they want to join the ROI or remain in the UK.

Joining the ROI would mean remaining in the EU, with no border. But it would mean pissing off the unionists and placing a border in the Irish Sea.

Remaining in the UK will mean chaos along the NI border and the potential of a return to violence. It will also piss off NI republicans.

But at least it will be democratic.

Plus the part I highlighted which made it seem we are still in 1977 while we're not and haven't been for some time

Hold a border poll - let the people of NI decide if they want to join the ROI or remain in the UK

I think you'll find that the Irish would quite like a say in that too...

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

I’m dublin born and bred myself, so I agree.

But in my opinion it’s for the people of NI to decide.

What if NI voted to join the ROI, but the ROI voted differently? Or any other example of a mismatch of outcomes? And, by that logic, shouldn’t the rest of the UK get a vote as one outcome is NI voting to remain in the UK? And how, then, could the 1.8 million NI votes hope to combat the 65 million (or whatever, I haven’t checked the population) other votes across GB and ROI?

It’s a nightmare!

Best thing would be for only NI to get a vote, and that governments of both UK and ROI agree in advance to accommodate the outcome.

Paddy, under the terms of the GFA, Ireland is to have a vote.

Amalfimamma

Fair enough about the Ulster comment, I think you're being a bit pedantic (and I'm from there myself) but if it matters to you, it matters. Regarding the other, we're dreaming if we think a new generation aren't ready to take us back there if they feel the need. That's what I was speaking to.

@Apileofballyhoo

I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks!

Amalfimamma And I say that as someone with mixed heritage, dearly loved ancestors with strong feelings on both sides and no love of Britain.

A border poll is not envisioned under the gfa. The gfa states that northern Ireland will remain part of the Uk and no polls shall be held until the majority of people in both northern Ireland and the republic wished to reunite the island.

Something which is never going to happen imo

There are too many people in NI who do not want to be part of Ireland for reunification to work. NI as part of the single market/customs union would work but the DUP is against that and Theresa May is making a speech today saying it isn't possible.

heartsease68

Honestly, I see my nephews and nieces who were born after 1997 and they don't give two hoots about what we lived through. They, like the most of us, have no interest in going back 20 odd years and reliving that all again. We, not the Uk or Ireland, must instill that to our kids.

The old guard are thankfully dying out.

Of course, the GFA has been basically (indeed, extravagantly) fucked by Brexit anyway.

And, by that logic, shouldn’t the rest of the UK get a vote as one outcome is NI voting to remain in the UK?

The rest of the UK didn't get a vote in the Scottish Independence Referendum, so no, the rest of the UK doesn't get a vote in the matters of a nation that they wilfully ignore 99% of the time.

I think the UK has had enough of a say in the matters of NI/ROI thus far.

There are 208 places to cross the border, shitshow doesn't even begin to cover it.

Remainers were hopeless at getting the message across about the NI issue, we should be blaming them as much as the Brexiteers.

Amalfimamma

Don't be so naive. Your nieces and nephews may not care but there are plenty who do.

I agree with PPs who state there is no solution. Just to add to the mix, if some sort of compromise was cobbled together such that NI stayed at least partially in the EU, then I would expect Scotland to demand the same, possibly even areas of England, such as London.

heartsease68

You mean ppl like willy Frazer and Jamie Bryson?

Like anyone, except themselves, take them seriously lol

Honestly, I see my nephews and nieces who were born after 1997....

We need to ban segregated education. Even if the old guard are dying out, there are legions of youngsters raised to vote along sectarian/tribal lines who have no daily interaction with 'them 'uns'. I have no hope of our political landscape changing in 50 years.

The old guard are thankfully dying out.

I agree with this, but I also worry that all of this is currently happening at a really dangerous time. As their numbers get smaller, they seem to become more entrenched, and at this point, while the numbers are reduced, there may still just be enough of them to do real damage in a final flurry of resistance. (I am talking about both sides)

I also think that there is a level of deprivation/lack of aspiration that contributes to the violence. Fighting for something, even if you don't fully understand it, is something to belong to, a focus, something to do. So while young people now are more removed from the troubles, they continue the same mentalities because it is a way of being part of something bigger than themselves. Similar to gang culture I would imagine.

I read somewhere a while ago (so forgive me if I can't find a link to back this up) that more and more people now consider themselves Northern Irish, rather than British or Irish. Young people are now in the no mans land that the GFA created. They can be British, or Irish, or both. But maybe now they feel like neither. I speak from experience here. This is how I feel, and I was around 10 when the GFA was signed. I know that my peers feel similar and some of my younger cousins as well.

StoatOfManyColours. That's true but from a personal point of view I've seen my family go from hard-line republican to mainstream moderate nationalist in the space of 20 years. And none 9f them, including the old guard, want to go back. Maybe that's why my nephews and nieces don't care n the way we did back in the day

Gingham
It might be easier to understand if you imagined that at one time the majority of people in Kent (say 60:40) had been anexed and were under French authority. With Kent being part of France....As it stands, anybody living in Kent can freely move and socialize with family and friends in Kent, London or Sussex. Similarly people inside and outside Kent cross the county boundary to trade and work. Given the history of Kent, for generations families have moved freely across the border freely, and indeed some dont want the border as they would rather still be part of England.

Everything works easily because Kent (as part of France ) and England are in the EU ... and everyone just accepts the "dual" currency.

Now imaging what sort of border could work when uk leaves EU and Kent remains. People still wander back and forward to school, work, to buy/sell goods, to socialise or even to get to parts of their property etc etc. What sort of border "control" would work?

The analogy is a bit simple and far from wholly accurate, but gives you a good flavour of the Irish border conundrum. For some reason a lot of politicians and people just dont see it for what it is, and why people on both sides of the Irish border would be so annoyed about the introduction of any border controls.

The British government are attracting the ire of the powerful Irish-American lobby. Unlike a lot of Brexit issues, Northern Ireland and the GFA is understood and scrutinised all over the world. The Washington Post says this:
Theresa May’s Brexit speech may break the Northern Ireland peace process
full article.

It explains the situation very well. Ends, thus:
"Furthermore, the speech’s intransigence is likely to have consequences within Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland’s peace deal was already in serious danger, as a result of distrust between the major parties. May’s speech is likely to be interpreted by nationalists as a strong signal that she is in the pocket of the Democratic Unionist Party. Already, nationalists are having difficulty restraining radicals from returning to “the armed struggle.” May’s speech is likely to add greatly to their difficulties."