What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

I don't think I am ignorant but I think you don't Like what I an saying!

The morning after the referendum, I remember saying to DH, ‘What about Ireland?’
We just sat in bed dumbstruck and heartsick. It seemed like such a momentously shit decision but I naively hoped the Irish impasse might make people see sense.
I thought John Major might peak Brexit a few more people and then the TM chucked away her majority and shacked up with the DUP.

I’m not Irish and have no family connection but that was the moment I knew we were rudderless in a shitstorm.

I get why SF can’t take their seats in Westminster but, by giving the DUP the whip hand, TM has prolonged the vacuum at Stormont.
How can the two sides even attempt rapprochement with such a huge imbalance of power?

This gov has already thrown Ireland under a bus to cling on to its parliamentary majority.

Also, if peace in Ireland is sacrificed for ‘sovereignty’, I can’t imagine why Scotland would want to remain part of the Union.

Following that, and the post Brexit recession, do the DUP really believe Westminster will still want responsibility for funding NI and Wales?

Long term, they couldn’t be posing more threat to the union if they tried.

If the ROI rejoining the UK after 80yrs of independence is seriously being suggested as a solution by the Tories, may I suggest a way to avoid disruption to the UK supply chain/lorries piling up in Dover?

France should also leave the EU and rejoin the UK. After all, we owned most of it until about 1350 anyway. I know it has been a separate country since then, but if it makes Brexit easier for us I can’t see why the French would have any objection. We’d be doing them a favour in many ways, since Britain is the envy of the world.

In fact, if Germany wants to leave the EU and join the UK too, or at least send some of their buoyant economic growth our way, I’m sure we can accommodate them. Spain too, to fix Gibraltar and the potentially stranded expat pensioners. And Romania, we don’t want to lose our fruit pickers. We could just rebrand the EU “England”, and bam! We’ve left the EU, regained our former empire which will please the Daily Mail, and don’t need to worry about all those pesky downsides.

(Waits to be told JRM has already suggested this)

a different country to the UK and I think there should a hard border

Ireland certainly started off as a different country, but then, s£&t happened.

Until recently, I would say that thanks to the Good Friday (Belfast) Agreement, we had an internationally recognised way forward. More recently, though, I am not sure the UK government is fully committed to keeping to the letter and spirit of that agreement. As for the agreement with the DUP, words honestly fail me.

If the ROI rejoining the UK after 80yrs of independence is seriously being suggested as a solution by the Tories, may I suggest a way to avoid disruption to the UK supply chain/lorries piling up in Dover?

When was the republic of Ireland part of the UK?
Words fail me here...

Also, if peace in Ireland is sacrificed for ‘sovereignty’, I can’t imagine why Scotland would want to remain part of the Union.

I completely agree with your points here, so I'm sorry to do this, but I'm going to be picky on terminology. Peace in Ireland isn't at risk. Peace in Northern Ireland is. The troubles didn't really happen in Ireland. The fact that civil war in the UK only ended twenty years ago escapes so many British citizens.

This isn't an "Irish problem", it's a problem for and in the UK and the sooner the Brexiteers realise that the better.

tazzy that was not an entirely serious post...

Sashkin, apologies on my comment, .

I do get that the comment is tongue in cheek however a lot of people commenting on Brexit/Ireland posts in recent treads have asked why Ireland just don't rejoin, they really believe that Ireland was part of the union in a good way.

Tazzy.

Honestly, I think there are only two options really:

1. Stay in EU to preserve GFA
2. Reunification of Ireland

These two are unpopular with some, but everything else is pie in the sky.

No problem Tazzy, I was trying to demonstrate what a ridiculous idea it was (and how offensive to think ROI would just abandon its sovereignty to help the UK out of a hole) by extrapolating to France and the rest of the EU. Unfortunately tone/sarcasm didn’t come across well on paper.

These two are unpopular with some

That’s something of an understatement!

Somebody creepy on R4 right now saying that "We just need to explain to Bariner..." how their plan (ERG?, Canada+) will keep trade open in Norn.

Explain = code for "They are total bastards who were never going to give us a good deal anyway because they have to punish us as an example to others so a No Deal will be the best deal after all".

I'm glad at last how Beeb is coming around to putting Norway in front of every rabid commentator. Norway is the obvious transition state to take for a fair few years while negotiating what Canada+ would look like.

France should also leave the EU and rejoin the UK. After all, we owned most of it until about 1350 anyway.

There was a suggestion in the 1950s for a Union between UK & France, the then French prime minister, Mollet, raised it with Anthony Eden on 10th Sept 1956.

Grayling in 2016 "No reason why [Brexit deal] should be difficult"
CG is on R4 right now, being made to squirm (least he deserves).

I have a vague memory that the UK was annoyed that, post WW2, the US didn't support the UK in making France and Germany vassal states protectorates of the UK

As for the reported comments from May that some 95% of a deal with the EU is agreed, there is just NI to sort out...words fail me here too. This was the biggest, most obvious issue from the start, so what has been sorted is everything except the difficult, possibly intractable part.

Norway is the obvious transition state

Norway has customs checks at the EU border though.

Norway is a member of the European Economic Area, and as such has signed up for the 4 free movements of goods, services, capital and people.
As many leavers don't seem to like the free movement of people, that's the end of that.

Glad you got the joke Sashkin.

Really my point is that the GFA was something of a miracle- it managed to bring two very entrenched and intractable positions together to the point were they could live in peace. It’s the Unicorn. Now we want to kill that Unicorn and are demanding someone else find us a bigger, better Unicorn with a rainbow mane and diamond hooves, or we’ll scream and scream until we’re sick.

Except really, I think the people demanding another Unicorn know it doesn’t exist. It just looks more reasonable than being “Yeah, we shot the Unicorn. We don’t care/that was the point”. “

Basically, it’s the Imperialist mindset rearing it’s ugly head and not giving a damn about anyone else, except as an oppression opportunity.

Fine, but damn ugly unicorn.

The only risk free way to sort out NI/EU border is for UK to stay in the EU, anything else risks a return to violence, just not worth it.

jasjas1973 yeah, right. Not gonna happen, deal with it.

Not gonna happen, deal with it.

How will you deal with it if violence breaks out again in N Ireland, and is then brought to England again?

"Deal with it". Jesus. Is that your answer to everything?
How about "own it". Are you old enough to remember the troubles and how brilliant it was to get the GFA? Like creating peace in the Middle East. Bloody miracle. And this stupid vote is shitting it all up against the wall.

The paucity of the leave argument, two years down the line, is shocking and depressing.

"Deal with it"

"Get over it"

It's literally all you've got, hey? You're actually incapable of coming up with a positive argument in favour of Brexit.

I don't see why they can't use electronic passes to get in and out of the country. I can take any train into london and use the tube anywhere without a ticket, just using a bank card. So can anyone else from anywhere in the world, I presume.

Surely for the locals at least who cross daily they can stick their card into a machine (like a toll base on a motorway) and the barrier rises. Surely all commercial vehicles manage to fill in HMRC or the Irish equivalent using their own ID nos or NI number or whatever. Couldn't that be put onto a pass to let them through.

That way any suspicious activity eg someone entering 6 times a day or untoward products or whatever could be followed up from checking databse using software, and examined by the police. or traffic police. Everyone is being arsey over this because they can - they need to get a grip and if they develop a new system for crossing borders it would be adopted elsewhere. The EU has borders all along it's eastern edge. Can no one cross any of these hundreds of miles of border?