What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

No I definitely don't see it with a bit cut off - I see the island with the border on it and to me the 26 counties are Ireland and the 6 counties are Northern Ireland - rather than the island being Ireland... I never imagine it without the border.

Equally I used to find the weather forecast broadcast from NI as really strange as on the maps it was like the weather stopped at the border...

A map of just the 26 counties with Ireland written on it would be really weird to me too.

I agree with a apileofballyhoo, I see the full country of Ireland with the border. I also remember the BBC news when they only showed the 6 counties floating next to the UK during the weather forecast.

It has never been an easy issue and is why people would often need two words for the two parts - the much larger republic - saying The Republic or the Irish republic helps distinguish it and I won't use Eire which I used to until this thread! so The Republic and Northern Ireland might be the two words to use or The Island of Ireland if you mean the whole thing.

it is actually vital for lawyers whio write contracts by the way. I have to write the definition of the territoyr of the agreement into an agremene tevery week. Sometimes we use maps. Sometimes we say as at the date of this agreement or the opposite - as constituted from time to time. I would get used by a client if I put Ireland in of course as that lacks legal clarity.

It's still a funny one legally, Xenia, as Ireland is the legal name for the 26 county part!

There is no solution to the Irish border problem.

I realised that in 2016 which was just one of the reasons that I voted Remain.

How many Leave voters ever thought about the Irish border????

So a typical commercial contract might be giving a self employed agent or a distributor a "territory". We spend a lot of time writing the description of that in a contract sometimes using post code areas, sometimes with a map. Othe rpeople do it very badly and get it wrong using terms like "Europe" or they forget countries change - West and East Germany joined up etc. So we have to put something in the contract and in my view better safe than sorry so if you wanted your dealer's territory not to include Northern Ireland you could say "The Republic of Ireland (Eire) as constituted at the date of this agreement and for the avoidance of doubt not to include Northern Ireland."

You never use Éire unless you're writing in Irish. Legal name is Ireland so that's what you use but you could say something like Ireland means the sovereign state Ireland and not the island of Ireland and thereby excludes Northern Ireland if you thought it was an issue. The GFA uses Ireland - the Government of Ireland, the Constitution of Ireland etc. The infamous White Paper uses Ireland. The Republic of Ireland isn't a legal name for any country.

As a lawyer, you should be using Ireland in a contractual document. It’s the legal name of the country and as such shouldn’t be open to ambiguity in a legal document (although it might be in colloquial speech as I said above!)

Very good points. So what about the following for clarity? It is vital we always make it clear at what point the definition is applies eg at the moment every day we are having to deal with Brexit so cannot just put EU in contracts but have to add provisions for the UK after it leaves in March because we know territories change all the time. _ I even remember Spain and Portugal joining the EU I am that old and the impact on contracts.

"Territory means Republic of Ireland as at the date of this Agreement and as shown on the attached map in Schedule 1, which for the avoidance of doubt does not include Northern Ireland"

I prefer the Republic I was born in NI and feel very much Irish Just as Northern Irelamd implies that the opposite is Southern Ireland, using Ireland to only mean the 26 counties implies that NI is not part of Ireland, when for very many people in NI, they are Irish and equally so as someone from Dublin.

It made more sense when the Republic had the constitutional claim to the entire island. While it was dropped to enable the GFA, NI is also part of the island and very much part of Ireland I have been struck (and slightly surprised) by how many of the Unionist background friends I know in London describe themselves as Irish.

Xenia if you use republic of you're not using the legal name of the country so I'd avoid that. Ireland is the correct name in a legal context. You could use Ireland, Republic of Ireland I suppose. Like Theresa May, Prime Minister. The first is her name and the second is her description.

I was brought up being told 'we're not Irish, we're British' and was taught to view it, not as an insult but just as something that was factually incorrect.

As an adult I had a lightbulb moment when I realised that if I had been born 100 years earlier in exactly the same place, I would most certainly have been Irish, in the same way that someone born in Scotland is Scottish. And from then on I had no trouble at all with accepting that I am in fact Irish, regardless of political preferences.

changehere I can completely see your point and as I said upthread I feel sad about it that generations of us here in the 26 counties have grown up to think of Ireland being the 26 counties. And you are absolutely as Irish be you from Derry or Dublin. The whole thing just makes me so sad. I'm not sure if I read it on this thread or another but there were people saying Ireland couldn't afford reunification and residents of NI wouldn't want it anyway to give up the NHS and the welfare state (though as far as I can see the welfare system here is more generous). That also made me sad and I feel it's a very selfish attitude for someone from the 26 counties to have. I think it's ok to think about things in a practical way, but not in a selfish way. It was just good or bad luck if you were an Irish person in Cork or Fermanagh at the time of partition. When you divide a country you divide the people too and it's all just sad.

I don't think it's right for people to be made feel they're from NI and not Ireland as that is ridiculous. It's all Ireland. I see what you mean about the territorial claim. I suppose I feel if we didn't use Ireland as the name we'd be accepting the partition as forever. I voted to give up the constitutional claim because of peace because that out weighs everything provided all people are treated the same and have their rights guatanteed, their culture respected and their citizenship guaranteed. But I do see the difference between wanting to be a citizen of a united Ireland and a citizen of the 26 counties. If the latter was all it meant then a person could just move house. Same applies to Unionists I suppose.

If the majority of people in Northern Ireland wanted an independent state I would see a good argument then for the 26 counties to use a different name.

I think it can only be a good thing if Unionists describe themselves as Irish. My cousins in various countries have been there for a lot less time and they consider themselves to be from that country. Multicultural countries.

treaclesoda exactly. It's where you were born and your people have been for 100s of years. I don't see you as not being Irish.

I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone in any way, shape or form with my ramblings.

This is an extract from the Wikipedia on the country I think is going to be the Republic of North Macedonia. Funny how they have both 'North' and 'Republic' in there!

It became a member of the United Nations in 1993, but, as a result of an ongoing dispute with Greece over the use of the name "Macedonia", was admitted under the provisional description the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia[9][10] (sometimes abbreviated as FYROM and FYR Macedonia), a term that is also used by international organizations such as the European Union,[11] the Council of Europe,[12] and NATO.[13] On 17 June 2018, Macedonia and Greece signed the Prespa agreement which would see the country change its name to “Republic of North Macedonia”, pending a national referendum on the issue and legislation passing through parliament.

Yes, I think my belt and braces drafting of making it clear NI is not included if a contractual territory is Ireland is probably safest.

Wiki says as follows so it sounds like until 1998 (which irelatively recntly I was 37 then ) the British Govenrment used "Eire" which is probably where a lot of English people got it from - Eire and Northern Ireland and that all that changed in 1998.

"Name
Main article: Names of the Irish state

The 1922 state, comprising 26 of the 32 counties of Ireland, was "styled and known as the Irish Free State".[16] The Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "the name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 states, "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland." The 1948 Act does not name the state as "Republic of Ireland", because to have done so would have put it in conflict with the Constitution.[17]

The government of the United Kingdom used the name "Eire" (without the diacritic) and, from 1949, "Republic of Ireland", for the state;[18] it was not until the 1998 Good Friday Agreement that it used the name "Ireland".[19]

As well as "Ireland", "Éire" or "the Republic of Ireland", the state is also referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South".[20] In an Irish republican context it is often referred to as "the Free State" or "the 26 Counties".[21] "

Very interesting Xenia, thanks for sharing. I think it’s obvious from this how much variety there is both legally and colloquially over the decades.

Xenia, I hope you can see from what you posted why it annoys people when 'Eire' is used. (It's not even the correct spelling of the Irish word and would be pronounced err-reh rather than air-reh. É is pronounced like the 'a' in the word bake, E is pronounced like the 'e' in the word leg.)

I know but I was using what the Government in England used until 1998, not that I often have to refer to the country anyway. I am finding it a very helpful thread.

I think the article says Eire was dropped by the UK in 1949. RoI used after that.

I don't and wouldn't pronounce Eire
Err reh
How would you pronounce Eireann?

Lots of people in NI are/identify as being British. They don't call themselves Irish. They are Northern Irish and British.
And a lot of people don't want a unified Ireland, I believe around 25% of catholics don't want a unified Ireland either so it's not just the protestants.
And people do say the south when talking about ROI it's very common.

I think it's time for reunification of Ireland

I think it's time for you to get off this thread Snog