What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

Xenia, please stop using 'the Irish' whenever somebody comments negatively on your posts. I don't use 'the English' or 'the British' when someone disagrees with me.

FWIW I found your family history mildly interesting, and I'm glad you are taking the trouble to actually read the posts here and trying to understand some of the cultural differences in the north of Ireland. I have English ancestry but it's not really relevant to the thread.

Xenia, I have no problem with anyone reading or contributing to this or any other thread. The more people who learn about Northern Ireland the better, IMO. I just think it's a bit weird that you keep talking about your Irish heritage when it was so long ago.

LivLemler
I found your post at 22.30 last night very interesting.
Could you please explain how you know the differences between the communities since you settled in NI.
I find it fascinating.

I don't like the term 'mixed marriage' - it's hard to find another short way to describe it though!

Depending on where you come from, it can still be nigh on impossible without a certain amount of estrangement from family. Imagine the MIL/DIL difficulties if Grannie is looking forward to First Communion (a very understandable thing for a Catholic grandmother to get excited about) and finds her grandson gearing up to join the orange order like his grandad on the other side... The problems can still be very real.

And that's not fighting Xenia. That's just culture. You can't tell them to stop caring or stop being bitterly hurt. As much as they might try to put their feelings to one side, it's very, very hard.

'Mixed marriage' is a great improvement on 'different religions' which is how some I have heard describe marriages between Catholics and Anglicans.

Oh god yes, ‘different religions’ is absurd. Mayo inter-denominational is a better term. To be honest I don’t find the need to categorise a marriage between two people from a Protestant / Catholic background at all anyhow. To me it’s just a marriage.

beanaseireann I saw your post last night and I've been trying to decide how to answer, but I can't! Obviously some things are instant giveaways - it's very unlikely that someone called Saoirse would be from a protestant/unionist background! Other than that... I can't quite put my finger on it tbh. The closest that I can come, is that people from Catholic backgrounds feel more familiar to me as an Irish person if that makes any sense? If you've ever seen the threads on here comparing Irish and British culture, manners etc it would be similar to that, with Catholics coding as Irish and Protestants as British. Only even more subtle as obviously people have far more in common than not.

It is subtle though... Obviously unless certain topics of conversation come up.

Also, people tend to feel a bit awkward about the whole thing ime, and try to be sensitive to people from another background. For example, I've noticed that naice middle class protestants trip over themselves trying to get Irish names right - a colleague I'd known and sat next to for years one day said "can I ask you something" in a way that I thought meant he was going to ask something very personal. It was, "how do you pronounce Eimear"! He'd guessed right, and even used to know someone with the name, but a) didn't want to get it wrong with a client and offend her and b) wanted to be so sure he didn't offend me by asking. He completely over thought it. Similarly, my DD has an Irish name that's almost phonetic in English, and I don't care if someone gets it a bit wrong. My GP tried so so hard, so earnestly to get it right he called her a completely different name. But he just wanted to be so very clear that he didn't care we're (culturally) Catholic in our largely Protestant area.

Similarly, I've been in the same scenario twice at work (different jobs) where a bunch of women have been having lunch and discussing school. In both cases, all bar one or two were from Catholic backgrounds and so several school mass stories were told. Afterwards, each time someone said to me "oh I hope X didn't feel uncomfortable", even though they'd been telling stories of their own school days.

I think for most these days, that's a huge part of the reason for mentally sorting people into one box or another. Not to exclude or be stand offish if someone is from a different background, but to be sure they don't put their foot in it and make someone uncomfortable.

I'm not expressing myself well here, but does it make any sense?

LivLemler although they could be seen as clumsy, I think your examples are good ones of a community trying to get on and work together, the act of recognising people can have a different cultural background and show some sensitivity towards that is a good thing.

I started using Ireland because people above hated me using the term Eire which I have always used in the past. I can't seem to say a single thing that does not upset people on this thread. I'm sorry. I want you all to be happy.

I am happy for people to think it's weird I talk about my Iurish heritage. It is why we are Catholics. It is what I am currently up to my neck in doing all my family tree work at the moment - I have la letter from ireland from the family from the 1800s for example so it is all very much upper most in my thoughts and my 5th child is current scanning our family photo albums for me and they are punctuated with all the religious events baptisms, first communions etc. I also had a DNA ancestry test this year. So whilst a lot of people never give their ancestors or religion a current thought I do and yes I am sure I am very weird on all kinds of levels.

Xenia, I'm fairly sure you don't mean to offend, you're just coming from a different place. I just don't like generalities like 'the Irish'. Éire has often been used in a condescending way, hence people would prefer if you use Ireland if you are an English speaker. It's like calling Spain España or Germany Deutschland when you're speaking English, as in it's a bit odd, but it can feel like saying "Ireland" with sarcastic inverted commas as if it's not a real country.

Éire is on Irish coins and stamps.

So if I were referring to a person from Northern Ireland and one from the South and I wanted to lump them together could I call them Irish? Or would it be Nothern Irish and then for the South Irish? I just want to use the right words which is why I stopped using Eire on this thread.

"The South" . Not sure you are getting it, @Xenia . Maybe do some more research.

Erm, there is ‘Irish’ for ‘Ireland’, there is no such thing as Southern Ireland btw.

I just want to use the right words

There are no right words. If you were from Northern Ireland, you would know to avoid the terms! Residents/people of Northern Ireland/Ireland might be safest.

Or Irish people rather than 'the Irish'. But basically I think the problem is the tone of the suggestions you were making and the pedantic school teacher manner which made everything sound wrong.

it's very unlikely that someone called Saoirse would be from a protestant/unionist background!

This has gone weird. In the search for new and original names, you are finding kids called Iona in hardline Protestant estates now.

So if I were referring to a person from Northern Ireland and one from the South and I wanted to lump them together could I call them Irish? Well...the problem is that if you want to do it without causing offence you'd need to be sure of the background of the person from N Ireland. A lot of them would be fine with it, and would view themselves as Irish, and a lot of them would regard it as grossly offensive and wouldn't be able to contemplate any circumstances where you'd need to lump them together with someone from the other side of the border.

You see i think that's what confuses so many people who don't live in Northern Ireland. Having to tip toe around people for fear of insulting them and causing grave offense. I'm irish if someone asked me was I English or Scottish i would just say no I'm irish. I wouldn't be insulted, I wouldn't be offended. The fact that people living in the island of Ireland would take grave offense to be mistaken as Irish really sums up the problems in Northern Ireland. I mean there are people who hate the Irish and look down their noses at us. Yet people go on about uniting Ireland because of brexit, why would I vote to be united with people who despise me because of my nationality, who would be insulted to be called irish. No thanks. I have no issue with anyone, I don't care what religion you are but I'm sick of feeling belittled by people who think they are better then me and who rather be associated with a country who quite frankly don't seem to want them.

That is very helpful eenym and I can understand that. I have no pro or anti Irish agenda. I voted Remain. I have the 1800s Irish ancestry and I suppose my recent family history research means I may be more interested in Irish threads (if I am allowed to call them that) than some others in England. I also like to learn what terms are offensive and which not which was the same with my parents - it is how we were brought up. it sounds like it can be hard to get it right over Ireland. My daughter has often been mistaken when out for being Irish but it's not an issue and it's just because of our genetic roots - we couldn't care less and of course her genetic roots are Catholic N Ireland and Catholic Ireland the bit down the bottom (avoided use of Southern Ireland or Eire there - I am learning..........)

"the bit at the bottom " - is a sovereign country. Your family history is not really offering a solution to the border problems

Of course I know that and I support it. Sadly no one has an easy answer over Brexit.

Ok, just because there’s a ‘Northern Ireland’ doesn’t mean there’s a ‘Southern Ireland’. Another example: now there is a ‘South Sudan’ (although different situation because it’s a country), doesn’t mean there is now a ‘North Sudan’. There’s Northern Ireland, Ireland and the island of Ireland. What more is there to say?

Well I'd actually say there's NI, ROI and the Island of Ireland

I actually never heard of Southern Ireland until I came into mumsnet. As far as I was ever concerned there's Northern Ireland and then there's the rest of Ireland. There's a South of Ireland but there's also a West and East of Ireland. I never realised that there was such a confusion about what Ireland is called.