What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

Oh heavens "cloth eared" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Seconding Ballyhoo's thanks to Peregrina.... I know there are sane and reasonable English/British people. It's just that they've not appeared here.

heartease68 is correct in the description of Irish people being more akin to that of enslaved black people. In fact, a member of the British cabinet (can't remember who? Salisbury?) in the 1840's made that direct comparison...that if there were no ni*ers, then the Irish would be n**ers (asterisked unpleasant word...I'm sure you all know what it is, but those were his words at the time).

As for the notion, that somehow this is a religion thing....again, cloth eared.
It is about identity and heritage...and how people of one identity and heritage were discriminated against in very similar ways to how we know black people were discriminated against in the Southern US states until the 1960s.
Which is why the Northern Irish Civil Rights movement took inspiration from ML King etc.

The British troubles/war in it's territory of Northern Ireland had little to do with religion, and a lot to do with post-colonial fallout.

Unfortunately, having posted on several of these threads, I think I am talking into a void.

@54321go the GFA was the agreement that made things a million time better. It's a live agreement. It needs to be respected. The UK's vote for Brexit has threatened it.
What bit of that statement don't you get?

The GFA was a good start, and predominantly English voters, and especially the ERG, are happy to see it torn up. That this is an International treaty needs to be drummed into their thick skulls. They are the ones who have got to take this on board; they are the ones who have to come up with a workable solution - and I don't mean Boris Johnson's rubbish about number plate recognition.

After 20 years of peace, if Brexit hadn't come along, there would gradually be generations growing up who hadn't known violence, so the peace would become more secure.

Another solution you could suggest would be for the DUP and their supporters to be resettled in Great Britain, since that is where their ancestors came from. No, I am not being serious here. But it's no more stupid than the right wing headbangers suggesting that Ireland leaves the EU, to get them out of their self inflicted problems.

I'm from the Catholic tradition. The thought of "repatriating" people to Scotland or wherever makes me want to vomit.
Everyone has worked so hard to make violence a thing of the past. And then some idiots vote for lies printed on the side of a bus and it's under threat. Horrible.

Now there's a question, Octavia! I'm not from NI but from talking to people who are over the years I don't think it was ever as black and white as that.

Some of Ireland's famous Irish heroes/patriots/revolutionaries were Protestant - e.g. Wolfe Tone.

Some people, regardless of religion, may have been reluctant to lose benefits such as the NHS and join a less modern country. Catholics first and foremost wanted to be not treated like shit rather than a romantic reunification.

One of my Catholic friends from Derry (family from Creggan and Bogside, very nationalist areas) told me they were very very worried about the Irish (republic of) referendum on the GFA for fear 'armchair republicans from Cork and Kerry' would fuck it up by refusing to let go of Ireland's territorial claim on N.I. That group of friends used to refer to Ireland (fairly jokingly) as Mexico i.e. less developed, cowboy country, no rule of law etc - certainly didn't give me the impression they were on a hurry to join, and actively wanted Ireland (republic of) to give up the territorial claim for the sake of peace.

On the other hand, a Presbyterian friend from another county was very frustrated and upset with his family referring to events in Ireland (republic of) as 'I see the Irish are having an election...' as if they themselves were not Irish at all. Though he had studied in Scotland or England (can't remember where) and realised everyone there saw him as Irish and not really British so it may have changed his perspective somewhat. Anyway he was for a United Ireland.

Another friend had Anglican parents and was bullied by both sides growing up.

All of these are just anecdotal - and pre GFA incidentally (I suppose that's why we were having the discussions around that time). So I'd imagine things have moved on quite a lot since then. I never discussed it at all with friends made after the GFA and with one fairly good friend I've never even found out what religion they are. I do remember them being pleased that the international rugby team was an all Ireland team rather than 2 seperate teams like in soccer.

But if it wasn't for religion the two communities likely would have integrated long ago just through a lot more marriages.

As a society how are you prepared to let so few blight the whole community

That's quite simple. The people blighting society are the ones who are willing to inflict violence. It's not that people are happy to let them blight things because it's too much effort to try to counter them. It's because they don't respond to reasoned debate, and they are often prepared to respond with violence to anyone who questions them. I don't report the local hoodlums to the police because I have a strong desire not to see my children die of smoke inhalation because someone has set fire to our house. Surely that's not difficulty to understand?

The thought of "repatriating" people to Scotland or wherever makes me want to vomit.

Please note that I wasn't in a million years suggesting this. I was just trying to highlight the stupidity of those who say that Ireland should leave the EU, to solve their problems, by coming up with something just as extreme.

I have said before, like most English people I have got some Irish blood way back. It was reading these threads that made me realise exactly when and why my ancestors came over.

54321go

For simply asking questions?

You didn’t simply ask anything. You made outrageous suggestions, including of genocide, leading to that post being deleted.

I refuse to engage with you. It’s pointless.

@Peregrina - I knew what you meant. I just wanted to stick my two penn'orth in that this is horrible and not worth Brexiteers thinking of.

how would the people of NI want to move forward?

As they were trying to do. Naturally you would not have noticed because you've clearly not been interested enough to inform yourself about Northern Ireland before. If you followed Northern Irish news and politics you would know that over the last 20 years there have been enormous efforts to stabilise the country, reach power sharing agreements (with ridiculous and disappointing failures blighting that effort in recent times), attract new business and work out a way to have a border without having a border. Great progress had been made, when you compare many of the attitudes and integration today with how it was 30 years ago. Unfortunately it was fragile, many people still have divided loyalties (to both peace and their culture) and the peace deal probably won't withstand British fiddling. Things were at their most fragile (since the GFA) as it was.

They were moving forward until some idiots came and messed it up with their stupid thought less

Thinking about this, there are odd quirks about Northern Ireland that seem so normal to people who live there.

If Protestant, you might have good individual friends who are Catholic but still have nightmares about being asked to say the Hail Mary in a nightclub.

If Protestant, you might be wholeheartedly committed to the peace process, go bravely to Nigeria for your gap year but never dream of venturing down the Falls road, even in broad daylight.

If Catholic, you might think your Protestant mate is a top lad but still feel more relaxed if your boss is Catholic. Not because you think a Protestant boss would be trouble but rather because you know there definitely won't be that kind of trouble if he or she is Catholic.

If either religion, you might have individual friends (of the other religion) that you would never acknowledge as friends to certain friends who share your own cultural background. You get good at living in different worlds where necessary.

Many young adults reach university without having met very many people from a different culture. Many go through a process of feeling intimidated, uncomfortable and finally surprised because it turned out everyone was normal.

Regardless of religion or political persuasion, you might automatically 'want' certain political outcomes but in the cold light of day, want to keep your job and your peaceful way of life a lot more.

But everyone is united in listening to the BBC news on the radio saying 'X happened in Derry Londonderry...' (they really do call it that) and think (why don't they just call (insert Derry or Londonderry as appropriate) by its name??

And I would add that you learn the first few lines of the Hail Mary so you can start to gabble it knowing they will never check you can keep going. I'm sure the Protestant bigots have their own way of checking who is 'their sort' - I just haven't heard what it is.

Brilliant post heartsease68. I'm originally from Dublin and moved to NI about ten years ago. I moved up to be with DP and moved up with a very blaze, everyone's the same kind of attitude. Which of course is true. The friendship groups we found (we weren't living near NI DP's home place) were mixed, more of our friends are in mixed marriages than not, etc etc.

But now that I've been here a while, I understand the place better, which also means understanding both communities better, and the differences between them. I know I'm becoming a local as I find myself mentally deciding which community people belong to, and what's even more surprising is that I'm never wrong! The only one I couldn't place was my old boss - who it turns out was the child of a mixed marriage.

I don't actually give a crap what someone's background is. But as an outsider (or former outsider?) it's fascinating to see how life works here, and it's not something that can be appreciated from a brief visit.

Oh, and I agree that what NI wanted was very much status quo. We needed the stability to attract more investment to drive the recovery. Belfast is buzzing these days, but that won't last if Brexit fucks everything up.

Let us have a second Brexit referendum now that people have come to their senses and it won't be an issue anymore

To the people questioning why there are divisions in NI, when the battle of the Boyne was over 320 years ago, I suggest you read up on some more recent history. In living memory anti-Catholic discrimination in policing, housing, employment took place. The political and electoral processes were biased towards Unionists, quite frankly an awful lot of people were treated as 2nd-class citizens. Over 3,000 died and 50,000 were injured, there are plenty of people living today who were victims.
The GFA was a torturous process, with secret talks taking place in the 90s, once thatcher had been removed (she refused to acknowledge there were political reasons behind the 'Troubles').
A lot of people have taken brave decisions, agreed to move forward and try to come to peace with what had happened.
All of this is now in jeopardy, all due to an ill-thought out and executed plan to heal a rift in the Tory party - Cameron putting party before country.
I'm not Irish, though my mum was and my partner's mum was. I know what happened though, not because I was taught it in school, but because it happened during my lifetime & made the effort to try and understand what was going on and why people were detonating bombs and shooting people across both islands.

heartsease68, I think the Protestant shibboleth is The Sash, but I could be wrong!

LivLemler, my DH is from Dublin as well and he finds the whole Catholic/Protestant thing really interesting in a kind of academic way- he doesn't fully get the nuances yet and is constantly asking questions trying to learn more.

His family think it's very amusing that he married a Protestant from Belfast, and they sometimes don't get that there's a fine line between mocking the absurdities of the divide and actually just being offensive. My FIL once bounced over to baby DD and said "Ah hello! It's me, your taig grandad!" and I lost my mind- he doesn't get that that is an obscenely offensive word up here and we can't risk DD repeating it!

dinosaurkisses Of course, singing the Sash! What was I thinking!

@ Ifailed - thank goodness for your common sense

" I know what happened though, not because I was taught it in school, but because it happened during my lifetime & made the effort to try and understand what was going on and why people were detonating bombs and shooting people across both islands".

Dinosaur kisses “your taig grandfather”. Haha. I personally love that sort of banter between trusted family and friends but of course you have to know your audience or you could easily offend. And you wouldn’t want a toddler repeating it willy nilly to all and sundry. Makes me laugh a lot though! That sort of “ The Blame Game”and Paddy Keilty style humour is a tonic.

I find it a very interesting thread; thank you.
My Catholic great grandfather was born in 1832 in County Down. His son moved to England and married someone Church of England. The children started as Catholics but then most of them moved over to the C of E.
On the other side my English born grandmother (also of originally Irish origin in the 1800s - family came over from 1820 to 1850) married a protestant in England in the Catholic church. My own mother Catholic married a protestant in the Catholich church in England as did I as did the next generation. So on my mother's side there is a continuous line since the 1928 wedding down of 4 generations all being mixed marriages. Yet is seems totally irrelevant in England but obviously I understand it feels different in Ireland. I am not sure in England if you can tell through culture or on sight if someone is Catholic or Protestant and many of us are becoming atheists anyway so that has a major impact too.

Xenia - a mixed marriage is of no significance in Ireland, just Northern Ireland. And when i talk of most of my friends in NI being in mixed marriages, I'm mainly talking about atheists. Cross community issues in NI are nothing to do with actual faith or religious practices.

It's galling when you talk about your Irish heritage on threads like this but you're talking about the 1800s.

The Irish seems to be utterly galled by everything anyone who is not Irish writes on this thread which is a pity. We will all try not to be galling. Would you rather we didn't join in on threads about Ireland? None of us mean badly.

There are fairly practical reasons why a mixed marriage was difficult for many in N Ireland until recently. Getting someone to actually marry you, if you wanted a religious wedding, being the first hurdle. Then what schools did you send the children to? We have some integrated schools now but even 20 years ago they were few and far between. So one side of the family was going to end up feeling snubbed in favour of the other. It was a very strong relationship indeed that could withstand the pressures of a mixed marriage forty or fifty years ago and I have huge admiration for anyone who managed it.

Yes that’s true. My parents married in 1966 and separated in 1976. I would say there were tremendous pressures on their marriage due to their different religious backgrounds. Today there are still many challenges but it’s obviously more normal and socially accepted. I hate the term ‘mixed marriage’ though, I really hate it! Many of my friends and family are in relationships with people of different religious backgrounds and the bringing up of children can be tricky at times.