What is the solution to the Irish border?

[MegCleary]

Keen to hear, as I am struggling.

Draw a line under that and move on.

Many, many people would love to do that. But who are you telling, exactly? This issue is not going to disappear just because it happens to be a stumbling block for brexit. It is what it is. Grow up.

"The island of the rest of Britain was invaded repeatedly by 'others'. "
Did I miss something? When did this happen.

I don't think Britain has been invaded since 1066, apart from a Dutch skirmish up the Thames in sometime like the 17th Century. Prior to that, the Vikings of course.

^that last comment.

I give up.

So putting an orange sash on and strutting around proclaiming 'we won' is helpful?

Draw a line under that and move on.

Oh for fucks sake what is between your ears? Do you actually have even the wit your were born with? We cannot move on from what England are doing to us right fucking now!! We are at their mercy. Right now! I am not talking about history. This is happening as I type.

Do you have the British army patrolling the streets, watchtowers, stop and search happening NOW? Tell me what England is actually doing in NI at this moment that is bugging you so much.

And you don't need to swear.

Like North Korea! So funny. The situation is obviously too complex for you to understand.

Oh Christ!

You have failed to say what England is doing now.
I have been to South Korea, it is OK but I wouldn't want to live there particularly. They certainly don't put up with protesting or civil unrest.
A peaceful protest at the front of a factory about wages with about 25 persons holding placards was surrounded by around 150 fully armed riot police.
N Korea is likely to be more extreme with NO dissent.

I am not worried about a hard border.

People talk as if the barb wire and watch towers are the default position when it really is not.

For there to be a hard border there will have to be the political will to impose one and that does not look likely.

HMG has made a firm commitment that it will not impose a hard border.

Given the economic importance of UK trade to the Republic and the political sensitivities, it is inconceivable that they will be building any walls either.

The EU has no means of imposing a hard border.

If there has to be a less than perfect system of collecting custom's duties, then we will have to put up with that but neither side is going to shoot themselves in the foot by imposing a border.

Without remaining in CU and SM there has to be a border. If the UK defaults to WTO rules there still has to be a border.
You have a front door on your house to keep 'other' people out, same principle as the UK (in this case NI) becomes a third country.

The answer is consider the impact of your vote and don't vote for Brexit. But it's too bloody late for that

It's a mess, there is no workable answer. Scary times.

Ok I'll bite.....

"what is England doing now? "

England/Westminster has created a mess in the government of Northern Ireland for decades, culminating in what was effectively a Civil War on British territory from the late 1960's until the implementation of the Good Friday peace agreement (aka the Belfast agreement) in 1998.

That peace treaty was simultaneously guaranteed by both the Irish and British governments....that is to say, both sovereign governments have an equal role in supporting the devolved government in Belfast.

In their way of mishandling Brexit, the British/English government is unilaterally withdrawing from their responsibilities to maintain the peace.
And the peace in NI is not so robust that it can easily withstand that abandonment.

TL;DR
England made a mess.
Is now walking away, saying "nar nar nah nah...you can't make me fix it".

So putting an orange sash on and strutting around proclaiming 'we won' is helpful?

No, IMO its desperately unhelpful. The point is, you aren't going to get people to change just because brexit won (not that it actually did win in Northern Ireland). It's terribly inconvenient that we have two cultures clashing and children growing up with bomb scares and violence (yes, still even now sometimes) but they're not going to stop however much most people would like them to. Those who voted for brexit knowing it was like this in Northern Ireland do not have the option (morally) of saying 'nothing to do with us'.

When the people are given a vote on a matter such as leaving the EU, they are trusted to think through if it would actually work and weigh up how the options would affect the country as a whole, not just their own little patch. To be honest, it looks like Cameron over-estimated the intelligence and moral stature of the British when he called the referendum.

Thank you Baroness.
The Brexit fiasco is such a major brain fart that it will destroy many lives. Only now are people coming to appreciate that the simple 'leave' vote would have such a major impact. Had true facts been placed before the electorate I doubt that it would have come to this.
I feel your 'beef' is entirely with the Westminster government, and when whatever happens in the coming months we can look back and see how many really wanted to go through with this. I very much doubt that any in the rest of the UK wish NI inhabitants any 'ills' although as is becoming apparent many do not think of much outside their usual sphere.

The vote to 'remain' (keep the status quo) was not 'sexy enough' to put on red buses. The Leave campaigns were permitted to tell lies and promise things that are near impossible to attain WITH NO PLANNING.

54321
I feel that is a more reasoned post than your earlier ones.

However, I have to take issue with you saying that "I very much doubt that any in the rest of the UK wish NI inhabitants any 'ills' " .

The problem with this is that it takes a hell of a lot more than passive good thoughts to maintain the peace.
The peace in NI needs to be robustly defended
A vague wish "oh can't they all just get along" is not going to cut it. Therefore the UK government has a duty of care to the inhabitants of N Ireland, a duty that involves defending the peace.

Citizens of the Republic of Ireland are exercised about this issue, as it feels as if the Westminster government is leaving the mess for us to sort out...a mess we did not create, a mess our government has negotiated with your government to improve since the 1960's, a mess that we warned you about pre-Brexit vote.

It's quite frustrating.

I presume you would agree that the UK mainland police or army are not suitable as 'peacekeepers' as they are deemed 'hostile' by most in NI, which I will happily appreciate. Therefore it must be held by PSNI which I trust you (meaning all in NI) are happy with.
While you may feel let down by Westminster generally, I am afraid you are not special in that respect. Almost everywhere further than about 80 miles of London has been largely abandoned by successive governments.
In some respects it is unreasonable for many people in England (Wales or Scotland) to have specific concerns about NI, with the appreciation that those on this side of the sea may not be the concern of those in NI. Although the geographical locations are not clear, sadly my knowledge of various towns in NI is based on the reports of bombing and killings of the '70's and 80's. In terms of the 'troubles' I would not expect many in NI to appreciate any more than Warrington, Manchester and Brighton. The Welsh had a period of burning homes taken as second homes by the English but I don't recall it being an issue of personal violence.

Sorry, what?

I can't understand that last post.

I would imagine most British citizens would not appreciate their army on their streets in place of their police force?
And UK "mainland" police?
Whoever brought them into it?

No, there is no getting away from the responsibility here.
There is no formula of words which essentially mean "we in England don't care about the mess we've made, we're off" that actually means you can disappear leaving the EU or Ireland to clean up your mess.

The rule of law extends to Governments as well as private people.

I most certainly did not vote for this government or Brexit. You cannot hold me responsible for the current situation and I assure you that I am being forced to pay for this mess against my will. Should I get angry and petrol bomb somebody?
On the basis that the government does not actually 'earn' money itself, British taxpayers have been paying to repair and compensate people and property in NI to cover the damage caused by 'the right to wave flags about'.
I was meaning 'mainland' police as in officers from England carrying out police duties as opposed to usual residents of the (NI) area.
Meaning that whoever polices NI must be local BUT the issue of intimidation and death threats (and in practice) make it a tricky issue.
I believe at least senior officers in mainland UK work in areas away from their homes.

54321go Could you run your solution by me again?

Those who voted for brexit knowing it was like this in Northern Ireland do not have the option (morally) of saying 'nothing to do with us'.

We have had at least one Leaver on MN threads telling us that basically they don't give a shit about NI. Others didn't realise it was part of the UK. Others who are a bit better informed are a bit worried but don't know what to do. May has got herself in a mess because she's dependent on the DUP for her majority now, but morally she and her Cabinet should not be washing their hands. They are trying not to but at the same time trying to appease the ERG, who are of the '"Don't give a shit" school of thought.

Almost everywhere further than about 80 miles of London has been largely abandoned by successive governments.

Yes, but we haven't had a Civil War, or not yet.