Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: A Pickling Summer

983 replies

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 22:55

May has survived. The Turd Way has survived.

Whether this is true is another matter. The Turd Way was hijacked by the ERG who ripped it up and turned it from being a starting point to another ridiculous declaration of believing in Royal Unicorns. Rees-Smug has declared May LINO (Leader in Name Only) in tribute to BINO (Brexit in Name Only).

No one yet has grasped the consequences for NI. The backstop was absent from the White Paper except to say, it would never be used.

Johnson also in his commons resignation statement lives in a fantasy land, saying we had 2 and half years to get something in place for the Irish border. Except we don't because we don't have an agreed plan, we haven't hired the people to do it, there is no guarentee the way we are going that we will get a transition agreement agreed to afterall; its entirely dependent on us meeting certain criteria.

Even the Irish themselves haven't got to the point of admitting the possibility that there will be an Irish Border. Under WTO rules, members are legally required to secure their borders. If we are separate members to the EU we have to secure our border and they have to secure their border. In theory NI could be a separate member to the rest of the UK but this would breech the priniciple of a border in the Irish Sea.

No Deal has moved from being an option to being a distinct possibility.

The Trade Bill passed through the Commons unscathed with a dodgy pairing, the assistance of Labour rebels and the brewery tour organising skills of the LD and Labour whips despite the best efforts of Tory Rebels. It suggests the ERG have the numbers to force things but there still are no guarentees of anything.

We've had calls from Justine Greening for another referendum; despite it being obvious that the laws on referendums being ridiculously weak and just about everyone ignoring the findings of the electoral commision and the Leave Campaign's referal to the police. Even then the maximum penalties are wholly inadequate to prevent and deter electoral rigging.

We've had calls for a cross party government of National Unity. Which has been dismissed by Corbyn as an attempt at an establishment stitch up.

We've had the former Head of DexEu (the department who have refused the most FOI requests) and various ERG backbenchers (who said that publication of documents would damage the governments negotiations) ask for transparency and for draft DexEu documents to be published.

Ian Paisley Jr appears likely to be suspended from sitting in the HoC from 4th September for a month for breeching parliamentary standards, losing May one vital vote. She has however been bolstered by the resignation of John Woodcock from the Labour Party pledging his ongoing support of Brexit (he's been a Labour Rebel in the past). Plus there is the O'Mara Factor whereby the whole country could be at the mercy of whether Jared can be fucked to turn up to work at all or not.

There are growing signs out there for increasing support for EEA though despite it all.

The Trade Bill now goes to the Lords, where there is suggestion they might throw it out, after the Speaker declared they had the power to do so as it was a Supply Bill rather than a Money Bill thanks to the Amendments the ERG supplied.

All the while jobs are lost and companies are abandoning the UK and NI has had the most violence in years, but no one cares because Brexit means Brexit and its all worth it.

And finally, when being questioned by the Liason Select Committee, May said that 70 Technical Notices for Households and Businesses in the Event of No Deal would be published in August and September.

The country is in a total pickle.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Somerville · 20/07/2018 21:28

Any serious history book will reveal that it was much, more complicated than unionist=bad, nationalist=good.

I haven't seen anyone say that. (maybe I missed it on this thread.) But most people say the opposite - the unionists are the loyal, brave survivors of those dirty Catholic terrorists. Hmm
You say you're not a unionist - fair enough. But I take it you didn't ever have a gun put in your mouth by a British soldier because your puppy barked at him?

When I was born, Catholics were less likely to be given certain jobs, especially in local government; local councils allocated housing to Protestants ahead of Catholics; we didn't have one man/one vote (leading to further gerrymandering to rig the councils alongside rigging of electoral boundaries); and the RUC was almost all Protestant and their brutality towards Catholics was rife, alongside their Special Powers Act which meant they could search without a warrant, imprison without charge, and ban assemblies, parades and publications.

There are lots of good and decent unionists, and there are violent, evil extremists on both sides. But we Irish Catholics were oppressed and abused. And are still. "Kill all taigs" signs on those bonfires recently, and then shouted in the marches - where else in "the UK" would that be allowed?

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 21:32

During the Troubles, as well as the more publicised shootings of unarmed civilians by the British army,
British security forces participated in organised torture - the 5 techniques of hooding, noise, stress positions, sleep deprivation, food deprivation.

They routinely tried to beat confessions out of Catholic suspects, which resulted in many miscarriages of justice and many innocent people spending decades in jail

They colluded with loyalist terrorists in many attacks to murder Republicans, as well as Catholic civil rights activists such as Pat Finucane

They colluded with - sometimes instigated - bomb attacks in the RoI that caused many deaths.
Papers recently released by the RoI govt allege that British security forces tried to incite Loyalist terrorists to murder the then Taoiseach Charles Haughey, because he wouldn't knuckle under to British pressure,

20nil · 20/07/2018 21:43

I didn’t say the Conservative Party was forced to accept partition. I also didn’t say the two sides were ‘equal’. I wouldn’t because this is simplistic and I think there are more than two ‘sides’ to this in any case.

For what it’s worth, the C&U party emerged in 1911-12 when the CP merged with the Liberal Unionist Party, which has itself been formed in response to Gladstone’s conversion to Irish Home Rule from 1886. By 1920, they had (finally) accepted that some form of Irish independence was inevitable, having stupidly fought HR for decades. They accepted partition in the expectation that NI and the IFS would reunify before too long. Models and legislation to enact this were introduced but it never happened because unionists refused it as soon as the NI was up and running.

I completely agree that England then the U.K. from 1801 mishandled, misgoverned and brutalised Ireland, especially Irish Catholics, just as they did their other colonies and colonised people. But the story is much more complicated than this, especially very modern Irish history.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 21:45

The "Kill all Taigs" signs are dreadful Angry

The fact that they were not immediately ripped down by the community indicate there is a substantial number of fascist Unionists who,
if given the opportunity, might indeed commit genocide, or at least look the other way if others solved their "Catholic problem" for them

The PSNI currently keeps this at a minimum "tolerable" level, so Loyalist Ultras can't put their hate into real action.

We've seen what happens in other parts of Europe when government disintegrates and / or the local government has a policy of ethnic extermination:
"Naice" respectable people suddenly rape, loot and murder their neighbours of a different religion / ethnicity

May is playing with fire if she thinks she can pander to every DUP wish without encouraging Loyalist extremists

20nil · 20/07/2018 21:47

I’m sorry Somerville, but any history book that says that about unionists is not serious.

I’m also really sorry about what you’ve been through. I can’t imagine how hideous it was and still is for lots of people. But no I’m not a unionist and I dispute the idea that we can only know about things if we’ve personally experienced them. If that were the case, there would be very few historians for a start.

changehere · 20/07/2018 21:50

20nil. I’m sorry. Britain never gave up any part of its Empire without a fight. Ireland overwhelmingly voted for independence and Britain insisted on partition. Britain insisted on the inclusion of Tyrone and Fermanagh which had voted for independence in order to make the Unionist state viable. This is clearly documented. They were not neutral, just as Theresa May is not neutral now.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 21:56

Don't fall for the comfortable BBC-type view that all sides are equally to blame and every pov is equally valid
They are not and never have been

The British govt is not an honest broker on NI.
The DUP, the largest Unionist party, is sectarian, with links to Loyalist terror groups and to far right white supremacist groups in the USA.

The British govt and the British public daily show their contempt for the GFA and for Ireland
NI is the last colony

borntobequiet · 20/07/2018 22:02

m.youtube.com/watch?v=YS0dUvEXx3g

Mrsr8 · 20/07/2018 22:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

20nil · 20/07/2018 22:05

Agree that Britain never gave up bits of the Empire willingly, but I am saying that British attitudes to Ireland and Irish independence were not static. They changed over centuries and were complex. I also did not say that the British Gov was neutral. Anything but. Of course TM isn’t either as she’s a unionist. Why would she be?

No, Britain did not insist on partition. The idea was first suggest by an unknown back bencher, taken up by Ulster unionists, finally grudgingly accepted by the Liberal gov In the pre-war suspended Home Rule Bill. The Ulster Unionists insisted on it after the 1918 elections.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 22:07

If you are going to ignore personal experiences - and probably also ignore family experiences going back generations,
then at least don't just read the whitewashed glorious British Empire version.

What crap have you been reading ?
Gove's personally approved school syllabus ? - he is fanatical in wanting to destroy the GFA, btw.

Read opinions e.g. from the RoI, even the US or Australia, which each have a large Irish diaspora
A former US colleague was taught in school (iirc, NYC) that the Irish famine was only second to the Holocaust in European genocides.

My mother comes from a former British possession in the Middle East.
The self-glorifying propoganda about British rule there bears no resemblance to the misery of the conquered people, the torture and daily humiliation they suffered until finally they kicked out the colonial masters.

20nil · 20/07/2018 22:09

I really do agree with a lot of what you say and agree that the treatment of NI has been absolutely disgusting and immoral. The British Gov has blood on its hands no doubt. But please believe me when I say that I haven’t fallen for anything. That’s a bit condescending. I’ve spent a lot of time on this stuff.

Somerville · 20/07/2018 22:10

20nil. Please quote where I claimed we can only know about things through experiencing them? I used to be an academic in an not-unrelated field to history and I certainly don’t believe that, either by inclination or training. However, if you want this myriad of history books to be taken seriously you should be providing references. What are the books and who are their authors? We’re they peer-reviewed? Who published them?

Whilst the opinions of historians can be a helpful part of a fuller picture, the individual experiences of living people are not less important than claims in history books. And history, I’m sure you will recall, is written by the winners. (Which when it comes to NI, is still Britain, as your Prime Minister proved again in her “no surrender!” speech today.)

20nil · 20/07/2018 22:12

Why are you being so aggressive? Why do you insist I have been reading crap? Because I don’t agree with you?

Where did I say I ignore personal experiences? Do you have personal experience of NI? If not, do you have the right to a view?

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 22:14

The British govt dictated partition to ireland in the early 1920s, at the barrel of a gun.
Another example of a govt that cynically gave in to Unionist extremists for political advantage

Partition is 100% the fault of the British govt
and England (& Scotland) was 100% to blame for the original conquest of Ireland, not Ireland for resisting.

Ireland was not at fault for being forced to give in to a military superpower and accept its own partition

However, karma.
The NI border looks like totally screwing Britain now
If Britain hadn't hung on to part of its former colony, it wouldn't now be looking over a cliff edge.

20nil · 20/07/2018 22:17

TM is not my Prime Minsiter Somerville.

Happy to list some good books but don’t want to derail. I’ll send you or anyone else who wants it a list. I did not dismiss personal experiences. I work with them in my own work. I responded to your question about whether I’d had a gun to my head. That seemed to imply that I couldn’t have a valid view unless I’d experienced it myself. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Somerville · 20/07/2018 22:18

Why are you being so aggressive?

Confused

I only asked for references for your assertions!

Somerville · 20/07/2018 22:19

Maybe you meant someone else, but I can’t see anyone being aggressive?!
Have a entered a parallel universe or something?

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 22:21

The views of damn nearly everyone in other countries who know Irish history is that Britain is 100% to blame
and has still not faced up fully to what it did.

The views of British rightwing historians are in contrast to those of nearly everywhere else, but unfortunately are still mainstream in the UK

20nil · 20/07/2018 22:22

Ok, I genuinely don’t what to derail so will exit but as I said happy to share books that I like with anyone here. Read and make up your own minds.
I’m as anti-Brexit as any of you here and I think I’ve picked up a number of views here from people across the political scale. That’s a good thing.

Somerville · 20/07/2018 22:23

Happy to list some good books but don’t want to derail.

I don’t need good books about Northern Ireland. I already own lots - several written by people I know. I’m asking for references for your assertions. There are a lot of lurkers on these threads and it’s important they don’t start believeing the “six to one, half a dozen to the other” batshit nonsense that used to be so prevalent amongst the academic community about Irish/British history.

20nil · 20/07/2018 22:24

Somerville, I didn’t mean you. Your message popped up while I was writing mine.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 22:38

Similarly as for my late mother's country:
only British articles have anything but condemnation for the British occupation

Britain has not shaken off its imperial delusions, because most people are unaware of the horrors committed under the British Empire, or maybe wouldn't care about them anyway.
They don't understand how much of the world views the UK - their former brutal colonial master

Some former colonies are rather powerful now :
e.g. If Brexit buggers up the GFA, the US Congress might block any trade deal, even if Fox actually managed to get one.
Then there's India, which was one of the wealthiest countries in the world before being looted and ruined by Britain
and China remembers the humiliation of the "Opium Wars"

We already saw the UK couldn't get its judge elected for the International Court of Justice, for the first time since ICJ formation in 1946. Developing countries felt free to gang up against the UK, on its own.

Former colonies might take the opportunity to block the UK's proposed schedules & quotas in the WTO.

Brexit delivers the UK bound and naked before all the countries it has invaded, bombed, looted, colonised.
It won't be surprising if some of them take the opportunity to put the boot in.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 22:44

Sam Coates Timess@SamCoatesTimes*
Exclusive: Leaked minutes from Chequers Brexit cabinet meeting reveal Andrea Leadsom made clear she “hated” the PM’s Brexit deal - which she now supports

She attacked “remainer tendencies” of most ministers and officials and attacked Treasury

OlennasWimple · 20/07/2018 22:49

We can't even win the sodding Eurovision Song Contest, that's how much everyone hates the English Brits