Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Channel 4 news is so blantantly anti Brexit it should be taken off air.

435 replies

surferjet · 17/07/2018 19:34

Why are they allowed to get away with it?

No replies wanted, just need this put out there.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 18:23

Or to put it another way more succinctly

Sally Claire @Klujypop
My fave tutor at uni had a great journalism 101 lesson: “If someone says it’s raining & another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. Your job is to look out of the f**king window and find out which is true.”

pointythings · 18/07/2018 18:42

We should also bear in mind that Surfer genuinely believes that the EU is the reason why the UK never wins Eurovision.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 18:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LetsSplashMummy · 18/07/2018 18:51

It seems people don't have an understanding of what bias actually is. It isn't biased not to treat everything 50:50 - if it was that simple Brian Cox would have to share his astronomy show with a Flat Earther, a big Bang enthusiast, an astrologer and someone's gran who is convinced the aeroplane lights she can see are a slow shooting star.

It is biased to systematically over- or under- estimate a viewpoint. If Brexit is 95% likely to be a total disaster and 5% likely to be a success, then reporting it only 70% of the time as disastrous is actually biased, dramatically, in its favour.

In the case of Brexit, every time they have to scrabble about for some self promoting plum to give the "up-side," to some depressing news is actually biasing the programme towards Brexit.

When a group of experts come to a conclusions - it should be reported directly if it is to be unbiased. During the campaign Nigel Farage's opinions were given equal weight to the entire Scientific, Financial and Medical communities in the name of balance. Similarly, in the US, it was seen as "biased" to report Trump's Pussy grabbing video without trying to find something similar to beat Hillary with.

This misunderstanding of bias played a large part in both Brexit and Trump's election and we should stop encouraging it on both sides and start campaigning for better statistics teaching in schools.

surferjet · 18/07/2018 20:05

No Matthew Paris, the ‘will of the people’ isn’t the same as willing ‘that pigs might fly’
you idiot - I didn’t vote for flying pigs. I voted to leave the EU!
Typical C4 interview.

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 18/07/2018 20:12

No Matthew Paris, the ‘will of the people’ isn’t the same as willing ‘that pigs might fly’

That's exactly what it is.

TM has just today said it doesn't matter the border technology we need doesn't exist yet as long as it's what's best for the UK.

I'd say that was exactly in line with pigs flying.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 20:25

surfer, the 'will of the people' is a very dodgy phrase which doesn't understand liberal democracy. I've just got to put my boy to bed but will try and explain the mechanics and why the phrase is misleading and not that simple later if I can.

surferjet · 18/07/2018 20:28

Ok Red.

OP posts:
Maidsrus · 18/07/2018 20:31

And still no one has said what the positive news is about Brexit .....

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 22:18

Democracy in its most basic definition is simply that it is a system whereby the citizens exercise power by voting. Its sometimes referred to as a “rule of majority” and a system of processing conflicts which the outcome depends on what the participants do.

In THIS sense, going against the ‘will of the people’ is theoretically undemocratic, but because we live in a representative liberal democracy system, the outcome of a referendum (an advisory one at that) its not that simple. Using the definition of ‘democracy’ as simply a vote, is inaccurate and neglects how our society is set up.

A Liberal (or Western) Democracy is a particular type of democratic system.

The premise is that individuals or small group of individuals can not be trusted with power, and democracy is a way of preventing abuses of power through a system of checks and balances on top of public votes. It spreads power by separating them between the three different branches of government; the executive (the government), the courts and parliament (our elected representatives) and they are held to account by the press.

The real problem with the referendum was its vagueness. The ‘will of the people’ to Leave the European Union was DELIBERATELY kept vague as to what that actually meant. Dominic Cummings and others are on record as saying it. Many of the lead individuals in the leave campaigns were saying we would get a deal like Norway right up to the last minute before the referendum.

What happened after the referendum was we had a problem because there were 17million different versions of what people thought Brexit was. And in this sense there was NEVER a will of the people. Just a vague instruction that no one had any firm detail of what it meant. We just got the slogan ‘Brexit means Brexit’. Its meaningless to this day.

This is where the institutions of our liberal democracy DO kick in to hold power to account. It's a more complex and nuisanced system. Its often abbreviated to simply ‘democracy’, which is confusing.

We have a situation where the executive is deciding unilaterally what ‘the will of the people’ actually meant without asking it.

There were many who used the vote as a means to express the view that the executive of David Cameron was not respecting its citizens and thus they removed him. That’s democracy. It worked in that sense.

But that wasn’t about how we left the EU. the vote was silent on that matter.

You have others who were voting on the basis of sovereignty, others on immigration, others still on wanting more money for the NHS. There was never any single definition and answer.

And strangely when the public were asked if they agreed with Theresa May’s vision of Brexit at the Ge2017, they voted and said ‘Er no’ that vision for our future is not what we had in mind.

We have repeatedly had the executive trying to manipulate the idea that the question of what the referendum meant was answered. They told the public what it meant without consultation. Thats fundamentally undemocratic. It also has tried to stretch its power beyond its limits.

The point of liberal democracy is that it is an ongoing conversation and that the press keep asking questions of the executive to ensure they are not abusing their position to put their interests before the interests of the people as a whole. In this sense we need a variety of media voices from various political positions to constantly ask questions. It's a fundamental PART of democracy. Its certainly not an affront to it. The BBC and C4 are supposed to be technically political neutral, but this still does not mean they should not ask probing questions of the executive, parliament or the courts and how they are carrying out their role. They are SUPPOSED to identify whether a politicians said in May 2016 that we would have a deal like Norway, if they are now saying a deal like Norway is not Brexit. Because thats holding someone to account for what they said.

Equally if the reality is that we have a time limit on how long we have to complete a task, its not political to ask if we can complete it on time. Indeed, if a politician is saying its easy (especially if they know its not) it's a fundamental duty on behalf of the public to call that out.

Liberal democracy, is also never fixed. If there is an event or new information, then people are free to change our minds accordingly with that express these changing views. Our elected representatives are supposed to listen to this and report back on what people are saying and make decisions on our behalf and in our best interest. This is especially important given the referendum was not binding and was so close.

The media is important in this by reporting changing circumstances and to also reflect what its readers / viewers are saying. C4 news in this sense is particularly interesting because its reflective of its viewers. Thats not biased; thats asking the questions that its viewers are asking on their behalf. Because it has younger viewers, it has a duty to reflect that too.

The problem we have here is this conflict between having a democratic vote which doesn’t fit neatly within our liberal democratic structure. Indeed it rather undermines that structure, which is part of the reason they are a really bad idea in a liberal representative democracy because they happen outside the normal parameters of the institutions that prevent abuses of power.

You end up with people saying that it is undemocratic to go ‘against the will of the people’ and you have people who say it is undemocratic to simply go along with what the executive say is the will of the people.

And frankly both positions are technically correct, but in different ways.

The problem exists in this case because of the vagueness of what the will was in the detail. And that very much is up for debate. And that particular debate exists within the framework of a liberal democracy. Attempts to shut that discussion down are an abuse of power by the executive and parts of the media and parts of parliament. This is definitely undemocratic by any definition.

How this is all unravelled and defused is anyone’s guess. It could come at the expense of liberal democracy itself, and that’s really one of my biggest worries at this point.

I’ll just leave it with a quote by one of the founding fathers of the USA (and modern liberal democracy as we know it in this country)

“Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it.”
John Adams

At the heart of liberal democracy is the need for compromise rather than the tyranny of one group over another. What that is, is what this country needs to work out still.

Sorry its long, but its not a simple thing and frankly this is a discussion that the media should be talking about to help resolve the conflict. Instead the media and the politicians are refusing to do so for their own benefit - not for the benefit of you or me.

bellinisurge · 18/07/2018 22:22

It's a bit of a snowflake position to take to be upset by a news programme. I thought that Remainers were supposed to be the snowflakes.

Childrenofthesun · 18/07/2018 22:31

The worst offender by far with Brexit bias is John Humphreys on the Today programme. If any anti-Brexit guests even make it through the studio doors he blisters, interrupts and speaks over them so they can't get a word in edgeways, then allows disgraced former defence secretary Liam Fox to blather on uninterrupted about how Brexit is going so well and we have nothing to worry about.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 22:40

John Humphreys doesn't do what a journalist should do - ask a question and let someone reply. The principle should be, that you are not providing a platform, you are holding someone to account. If 'your side' are better they should be able to answer those difficult questions every bit as well as 'the other side'. You are giving both sides the opportunity to reply to criticism and questions.

WhoCanIBeNow · 18/07/2018 22:42

Just saying thanks for tip, so now I can watch the news that isnt all "Brexit is great and there will really be 350 million per week for the NHS"

HesterShaw1 · 18/07/2018 23:42

Still unsure - what the fuck is so great about Brexit? Because I've been looking hard for two years and can't find anything.

54321go · 19/07/2018 09:20

The BBC has it's own 'agenda' and has since it started broadcasting in the 1930's. It is effectively biassed towards the direction of 'Brexit' for it's home news as the upper ends of the BBC heirarchy tend to be conservative (small c) and in a slightly patronising way, although the reporting and broadcasting to and from the rest of the world is usually excellent and even handed.

surferjet · 19/07/2018 09:47

Thank you Red - I’ll have a proper read of your post tonight < at work >

OP posts:
prettybird · 19/07/2018 17:49

Re "bias" and "balance".

The BBC would do well to remember this. Channel 4 is doing a better job of proper analysis and not just regurgitating sound bites.

Sally Claire @ klujypop
My fave tutor at uni had a great journalism 101 lesson: “If someone says it’s raining & another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. Your job is to look out of the f**king window and find out which is true.”

BertrandRussell · 19/07/2018 17:56

Has anyone been able to be reassuring about Brexit yet?

prettybird · 19/07/2018 18:03

We're getting blue passports back Hmm

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 19/07/2018 18:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LoveInTokyo · 19/07/2018 18:52

Channel 4 news is so blantantly anti Brexit it should be taken off air.

Right.

So, let me just get this straight.

You think that a television broadcaster which, unlike the BBC, is not subject to any legal obligation to remain politically balanced, should be "taken off air" because you disagree with the way they present the news.

Fuck me, if this is the kind of country you want to live in, where free speech doesn't exist and broadcasters are only allowed to present the news so that it supports a particular political point of view, why don't you lot all just fucking well move to North Korea instead of wrecking the UK with your dangerous and stupid ideas?

Go and sit in a corner, read 1984 and think about what you've just said.

Idiot.

LoveInTokyo · 19/07/2018 18:58

Leave voters really don't believe in democracy, do they?

I mean, sure, they'll bang on about "the will of the people" every time anyone suggests the referendum was fatally flawed and perhaps we should have another go (even though if leaving the EU really is still "the will of the people" they would presumably win a second referendum), but they really don't give a shit about free speech, a free media or a free and independent judiciary.

I note that Surfer has not suggested that the Scum, the Express or the Daily Heil should be taken out of circulation for being pro Brexit.

I wonder why?

surferjet · 19/07/2018 20:36

LoveInTokyo

It’s not usual to sign off posts with your real name!

OP posts:
surferjet · 19/07/2018 20:51

Red

The referendum may well have been ‘advisory but David Cameron said it was binding and they’d be no ‘best of three’ - he doesn’t even regret holding the referendum & is on record for saying this: Britain was always [a] rather reluctant and uncertain member of the EU* - & that’s comjng from a remainer? Lol
& Your bit about 17 million versions of Brexit is crazy weird nonsense - there isn’t even 5 versions of Brexit let alone 17 million! I’d say there’s 2 - soft Brexit ( BINO ) or hard Brexit - but whatever way you look at it, more people voted to leave than voted to stay, so we leave right? & we leave making sure the key reasons for leaving are acted upon;

  1. Ending freedom of movement.
  2. Not having EU laws forced on us ....etc etc - Taking back control basically. It’s not impossible to leave the EU, & leaving will not be the end of the world as we know it. Remainers are such drama queens.

I’ll reply to the rest of your post a little later as on 5% here.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread