Still Not the Brexit Arms

[Bearbehind]

Gosh the old thread has been busy today!

Not got time to catch up just yet but putting this one here for later.

Do you think it should be the UKs responsibility to look after vulnerable people from 27 other countries?

Probably a fair point. After all, it certainly can't look after it's own.

@the element from the blue coloured 'post'. Boris's comment is the nearest accurate and could be achievable although not necessarily much to do with Brexit. There rest are unicorns.
The 'deals' countries get with the EU are pretty good compared to many using WTO rules alone. The UK has always winged about the EU and refused to join in properly (party pooper) with the (false) manner of being superior.

Quietrebel - Isn't that what TMs soft Brexit white paper is all about? Unfortunately hard core remainers dont want a compromise.

The plea's of the minority that they will be disenfranchised will only fall on deaf Brexit ears. What happened to balancing the needs of the minority when Tony Blair rushed headlong into ever closer union? Who gave a shit about the disenfranchisement of Brexiteers for decades? They were dismissed as racists. So my apologies, the only respect will be playing on a very small violin.

Even if you were right (and I don't see it the same way as the UK did manage to get a lot of opt outs over the years) two wrongs don't make a right. It's just unnecessarily vindictive.

So fail to prepare - the UK and Leave campaign - prepare to fail - the UK Leave Government. I'll leave it to fangirl and Rosstac and other Leave voters, whether they knew what they were voting for or not, to decide what 'fail' looks like.

You lot have more stamina than me.

It's literally pointless discussing this with fangirl, she's so blinkered to reality nothing you say will make any difference.

We need to make sure we get out of the EU properly first, until that happens we have to start planning for WTO arrangements.

It's already being done:

eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:56fe97e6-5dd6-11e8-ab9c-01aa75ed71a1.0017.02/DOC_2&format=PDF

Julian Braithwaite @JulianUNWTO Jul 19

Today I sent our UK goods schedule to the WTO secretariat on behalf of @LiamFox. This will be circulated shortly to all WTO members for certification. This sticks to the plan set out by the UK Government after the referendum for establishing the UK’s independent position @WTO.

And other countries are already responding:

ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/initiatives/com-2018-312/feedback_en

CANADA — opposes method, still too much uncertainty
URUGUAY — opposes method, questions data and base period
MEAT & LIVESTOCK AUSTRALIA — opposes method, questions data. seeks clarity about Brexit arrangements
PARAGUAY — Challenges legal approach, seeks information on the process, expects outcome will not “nullify nor impair” its access to the EU and UK
NEW ZEALAND — EU27 shouldn’t amend EU28 quotas, UK’s position is questionable, no hurry since the UK is staying in the customs union through the transition
DAIRY COMPANIES ASSOCIATION OF NEW ZEALAND — full range of objections
BEEF + LAMB NEW ZEALAND AND THE MEAT INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION OF NEW ZEALAND — unacceptable approach, and too hasty
ARGENTINA — opposes method, asks about UK-EU trade in the quotas
INTERNATIONAL BEEF ALLIANCE — opposes method, questions haste

Oh dear, maybe it really isn't going to be very easy after all.

It's just unnecessarily vindictive. Not to mention incredibly short sighted. A large minority feeling disenfranchised and unrepresented is a bad thing for any society just look at the troubles in NI. That's not to say I think violence would erupt in the U.K. but that attitude is hardly the way to a cohesive society is it?

I agree Bear about changing minds (or not) but it does shine more of a light on the views underpinning the referendum vote. It also confirms that there are leave voters who have no clear idea of what the EU did or what the UK will achieve if/when we leave the EU.

Whatever happens I think that it will be the leave voters who, in the main, will be disappointed with the outcome. Remainers may not want any change from the status quo but they are already aware of the range of possibilities that might be our final destination. If we end up EEA/EFTA most remainers are likely to adjust positively - not sure that will be the case for most leavers. Regardless, as I read today it may take 50 years (JRM I believe) for the economic benefits to be realised.

On the basis that a significant number of 'levers' voted on immigration I think it is a reasonable hypothesis that there is a likelihood of violence either soon or as the real impact of Brexit bites and leavers refuse to acknowledge it was 'their choice' and that they 'won' with the serious downside being a significant increase in poverty and shortage of well paid jobs, both being factors in 'violence'.

I would love to see JRM try to sell the 50 year prediction to the general public. I will be dead, my children may be, and my infant grandson may well have grandchildren of his own by then. In his case, I expect him to have long left the country to live elsewhere.

Most Remainers would accept EEA/EFTA as a second best. But Leavers? Those who did vote about immigration will be disappointed - non EU immigration has already gone up. More money for the NHS - forget it. Sovereignty - not lost but forget any additional powers if we have to kowtow to the USA or China.

I don't think it's about changing minds. I think it's always useful to engage and keep the conversation going. Even if there's no shift in attitudes or opinions at least we're still talking you know?

Polls show a shift to remain. A lot of people did not vote not realising the seriousness of the situation. Brexit is tearing this country apart, it is going to cost each and every one of you somewhere between £1500 - £3,500 every year.

We need a 2nd referendum.

I think it's always useful to engage and keep the conversation going. Even if there's no shift in attitudes or opinions at least we're still talking you know?

I think it's pointless engaging with people who refuse to see the reality of a situation and who continue to see everything through rose cloured glasses.

But Bear there are others who are reading and maybe not commenting, perhaps because they are coming to understand the breadth and depth of the consequences of the leave vote.

Maybe... but if they don't listen maybe others will?

Maybe

JWIM, this is where a divide comes when neither side listens or acknowledge the truth, the truth which has and is affecting them, it might not affect you doesn't mean its not true or don't you want to hear the truth as it doesn't fit in with your version of how things are.

It's not neither side listening or acknowledging the truth though.

Remainers are well aware of the repercussions.

It's Leavers who are literally ignoring everything that's going on because they still think there's a magical solution.

I am well aware that everyone's experience is different and is reflected in their views.

What the referendum result has amply illustrated is the Government's complete failure to address the very divided views 51.9% to 49.1% of those who voted, let alone those who didn't/couldn't, and more particularly were prevented when they had every right to. If we are to understand each other's experience and 'truth' surely far better to bring people togther rather than accentuate the divide.

Bear I agree that it’s pointless trying to argue with people like fangirl or surfer - it’s like trying to argue with a religious fundamentalist.
I met my DM today who voted Leave because she didn’t think they would win and thought that a significant Leave vote would strengthen Cameron’s negotiating power.
She hasn’t explicitly said so but I’m pretty sure she regrets her vote.
It’s also important to remember the large number of people who didn’t vote - I’m sure that many of them are horrified at this shit show and will become more so when reality starts to bite.
I’m also hanging onto the fact that demographics are not in Leave’s favour - the divide between the way older and young people voted was incredibly stark.
The reality is that older voters will begin to die off and more and more young people, who overwhelmingly voted Remain, will reach voting age. DS1 turned 18 last month and would definitely vote Remain if the Referendum was tomorrow as would most of his friends.

Totally agree mrshoolies

It's all well and good saying 'we need to bring people together' but when one side refuses to acknowledge the facts and just continues spouting their ideological beliefs, it's pointless.

The EU have stated that should the negotiations need to be extended, then they would only grant that if the UK showed a distinct change in their political stance, either through a new referendum or through an election. Since the white paper for the Chequers proposal has been all but poo-pooed now by Barnier who stated it leaves the member countries open to fraud, it seems we will either have a new referendum, an election ( where which ever side offers a new referendum will win), or an all out hard brexit.

As I mentioned on another thread , the time for WHY ? has long gone ( let the historians deal with that ) but we and the media should be asking those in power HOW ? and WHEN ?. We have less than 8 months left and nothing has been achieved.

Tick tock goes the article 50 clock.

inthemixx can you post a link for this please