Still Not the Brexit Arms

[Bearbehind]

Gosh the old thread has been busy today!

Not got time to catch up just yet but putting this one here for later.

Fangirl I conclude that Leavers who knew what they were voting for because that is what those Leave voters have said. If you did not know what you voted for then my question is not addressed to you.

The EU is set up with a set of rules. There is nothing to stop a Member State from leaving the EU. How such a Member State achieves leaving is in the hands of that Member State. They know the set of rules, they know what leaving will involve, they can plan and deliver what needs to be done - or not as the UK LEAVE Government is amply demonstrating.

We are agreed that the LEAVE Government needs to carry out all the negotiations etc to establish the new agreements/relationships. The only issue is time - or more specifically lack thereof!

FOM - Again, anecdote is not data - if you can link to the actual cases you refer to, not your recollection, then I will happily offer a response.

Maybe think again about how you view 'a lot of remainers' and their experiences. You can't possibly know.

Walkingdeadfangirl, I think the difference between the image you chose and mine is quite revealing. You talk about a gym membership, which is a non essential item and I'm talking about a house, a home, the most essential item one can have.
If the EU is no more significant than a gym membership to you, why would you care so much about brexit after all?
I would argue making the right decision re EU affects all areas of our lives; it's the biggest change since WWII and I don't think a casual shopping around attitude is suitable.

Quietrebel, being in the EU group is not an essential item and there is no actual moving involved, which is what your image of moving house would involve. However that does not mean I consider it trivial.

I care about it because I spend a lot of time in the gym and I dont like it anymore, its over crowed with lots of new people, its rules are very restrictive and not what I signed up for, its very expensive and I want to use the facilities in some of the other gyms.

JWIM, I know what I voted for and I voted to Leave, as did 17 million other people. You can spin that anyway you want but that is exactly what project Fear did and look where that got them.

Home Office policy of deporting homeless EU citizens is illegal

JWIM all most as outraged as the civil service members that constantly leaking private government material, but that’s ok with you because it’s fits your agenda

JWIM you do know that data and statistics can be manipulated don’t you,
As per normal believe what you want I dare say or life’s are a world apart and unfortunately I live in the real world where these sorts of things are a regular occurrence,
I said many times I am not anti immigration, only want immigration on a visa based job application, is that really so bad ?

Fangirl, I understand you don't consider it trivial but at the same time there is a certain cavalier attitude in saying 'let's just shop around'. There are no other equivalent trading blocs right now that the UK could court. WTO rules for instance only apply to goods as far as I know but we are mostly a services economy. The Commonwealth is also not an equivalent.
I meant we should look after what we have, right now, and improve on that rather than tear down our home before even finding alternative accommodation.

Fangirl Thank you for the link. So the Home Office 'hostile environment' again. If you don't like EU rules that protect the most vulnerable, fair play.

Rosstac what private government material are civil servants leaking? If you go to the EU website it sets out all documents pertaining to Brexit - open and transparent.

So, we conclude 'I voted LEAVE to Leave the EU' is not the same as I voted LEAVE because I knew/know what leaving the EU involves and understand how EU laws apply and how the UK Sovereign parliament laws apply. Any and all consequences of voting to leave the EU are someone else's problem, that someone else is responsible for providing a solution - that someone else preferably being a remain voter/EU so there is someone (remain voter/EU) to blame when what ever the individual LEAVE voter's idea of leaving looked like does not happen.

I've given up, for now, on any LEAVE voter offering any insight on aviation after 29 March 2019 or any of the other potentially tricky trade/transport/cultural etc ways of doing business/moving around/exchanging ideas and experiences covered by existing EU agreements that the UK currently operates under.

Rosstac indeed, and what anecdote looks like too.

I can't see how remainers knew what they voted for either.

Happy to enlighten you - for the status quo. Leavers however seemed to be voting for any old change, doesn't matter what it is, whether it's to our detriment or not, just any old change.

We knew it wasn't going to be a walk in the park but we voted to leave the EU anyway.

On the contrary we were informed that it was all going to be easy. Was Fox or Davis, can't remember which, said they would be the easiest deals in history and done in an afternoon. More than two years on.... well, where are these deals?.

How is it that immigrants are taking up school places in areas like Sunderland which voted Leave and has hardly any immigrants? Are they all commuting up from London weekly?

fangirl that article just says that deporting homeless EU citizens in the way the Home Office was doing it was illegal. Given what happened with Windrush, such incompetence from the HO really shouldn't be a surprise.

I might become homeless. It's not likely, but bad things can happen to anyone. However, I've lived here, worked here, paid taxes here for 21 years. I am fully entitled to settled status. If I were to become homeless after receiving such status, the Home Office could not deport me. At what point do you feel that people who have invested decades of their lives in the UK, who have built families here, who have homes here are deemed sufficiently worthy of being allowed to stay? Is it only while we are working? Should EU nationals who reach pensionable age have to leave then? Is the ultimate aim of some Leavers to have a country where foreigners are allowed to come and work but are not allowed to accrue any rights?

You could implement such a model, of course. However, you'd be in hot water with regards to international law if you didn't then as a government make provision to compensate all these people by having them pay far less tax etc. There are no simple solutions.

there is a certain cavalier attitude in saying 'let's just shop around'
That's because most of us have been going around in circles like this for years and its exasperating an internet forum discussion with strangers. I dont want to leave Europe or fall out with the EU, I just want a different relationship with them. One where we can decide for ourselves, how we trade with the world, which laws we follow and who comes into our country.

we should look after what we have, right now, and improve on that rather than tear down our home

I think several years ago a majority would have agreed with you. But the fundamental foundations of the EU are now incompatible with the future of the UK. Tinkering around the edges can not fix it, divorce is imminent, counselling has failed.

Even arch-remainer David Cameron our then PM went around all the EU countries begging, as a last ditch attempt to get change. And the EU told him where to go. Sometimes it is cheaper to knock your dilapidated house down and rebuild it rather than put buckets under the leaking roof. Yes it means living in a rental for a while but in the end you can get your dream house.

On the contrary we were informed that it was all going to be easy

Yes, I'm sure I remember being told how easy was all going to be, and how wonderful the Sunlit Uplands would be. I wonder where I heard that?

Fangirl so how are you going to get your dream house? It usually starts with a plan.

Even arch-remainer David Cameron our then PM went around all the EU countries begging, as a last ditch attempt to get change.

No, he wasn't interested in promoting what was best for the whole of the EU - he was yet again whining for yet another special deal.

If you don't like EU rules that protect the most vulnerable, fair play
Do you think it should be the UKs responsibility to look after vulnerable people from 27 other countries?

So, we conclude 'I voted LEAVE to Leave the EU' is not the same as I voted LEAVE because... Yes pretty much. It was the job of the MPs and other experts involved in the referendum to put across all the relevant details. If remainers thought aviation was important they had plenty of time to inform the voters.

Happy to enlighten you - for the status quo
The status quo wasn't on the voting paper, both options involved change.

On the contrary we were informed that it was all going to be easy That's spin for you, you shouldn't believe everything politicians say. I took from that quote that it was going to be easy if both sides wanted it to be. But if the EU didn't want an easy deal then it would be more difficult.

pointythings The way it should work is that you should only be allowed to come here to work or study. If you lose your job or study place then you do not get to sponge off UK tax payers, you go home to your country and use their welfare system. UNLESS you have been here long enough to have ILR or settled status (5 years I think) in which case the UK system will look after you if you lose your job or become homeless.

The status quo 'remain' was on the voting paper - any other version of the EU as predicted by the Leave campaign was their/your 'project fear'.

how are you going to get your dream house? It usually starts with a plan.
We need to make sure we get out of the EU properly first, until that happens we have to start planning for WTO arrangements.

he wasn't interested in promoting what was best for the whole of the EU - he was yet again whining for yet another special deal
And that is why we have to leave the EU, it is now incompatible with what the UK wants and never will be.

The status quo was most definitely on the ballot paper. Remain.

However, the flavour of Leaving most certainly wasn't. Leave but stay in the EEC - the option which Farage was quite keen to support.
Leave but try to rejoin EFTA.
Leave with no deal. None of these were on the ballot paper.
Nor was Leave Euratom, which was a separate treaty.

...other experts involved in the referendum to put across all the relevant details.

We've had enough of experts remember? Not Cameron saying this but Gove.

These lying spinning politicians are the ones that you are relying on to negotiate for the UK.

As for going home and using your own welfare systems - please tell that to those members of the Windrush generation who as British subjects were invited to come here, and have been in receipt of some shameful treatment, as though they were illegal immigrants. After spending working lives here and paying taxes.

Pray tell us fangirl what it is that the UK wants. You have to exclude the 16 million of us who voted Remain, because we are not going to get what we wanted.

The status quo 'remain' was on the voting paper
Remain was not the status quo, it was the acceptance of doing whatever the EU wanted it to do. And how many remainers knew what the EU presidents were going to do to the UK? Was it ever closer union?

OK Fangirl so you're OK with the 5 year commitment. So am I, I think it's reasonable.

But the fact remains that if we had a simple ID card or registration system for everyone who is normally resident in the UK and exercising their treaty rights, the UK would be able to identify those people who no longer had a right to be here, and would be allowed to remove them. No mess, no fuss, the way it's done in Belgium, Germany and other countries. The UK chose not to implement any such thing. Most recently it failed because Labour's ID card plans were megalomaniac batshit crazy - but it doesn't have to be that way. I'd happily carry an ID card to prove my entitlements - as long as my British NDN also had to carry one.

Fangirl, when you say 'incompatible with the future of the UK' what sort of vision do you have for the country? How specifically should it diverge from the EU (parking the question of immigrants for a minute)? What sort of project would you really get behind?

We've had enough of experts remember? Not Cameron saying this but Gove Way to take a quote out of context, spin anyone?

You have to exclude the 16 million of us who voted Remain, because we are not going to get what we wanted
Yes you are right, that is how elections and referendum work.

Fangirl, actually no I don't agree. Democracy is the delicate balance between respect for the majority whilst being careful not to disenfranchise the minority. Otherwise it's not much more than mob rule.

It't not actually how Referendums work in this country. As a Parliamentary Democracy we have been honing General and Local Election Law, so most contingencies are covered. Referendums have been one off pieces of legislation each time, and each one has been different.

If e.g a local councillor dropped dead tomorrow, we would need a by election. We know exactly how long we have before we must move a writ to have a by election. We know what the rules are for getting a candidate authorised. We know what the deadlines for getting nominations in. We know when the postal votes must go out, we know how the election and count must be run. We know what the rules specify in the event of a tie.

We know none of that for a Referendum. Hence we had problems with the Referendum adding bits of legislation later to do with who was enfranchised.