Still Not the Brexit Arms

[Bearbehind]

Gosh the old thread has been busy today!

Not got time to catch up just yet but putting this one here for later.

Don’t mention the 3 month rule as that is none sense,

It isn't nonsense. The means to control FoM was always within the remit of the Government. They chose not to put in place the means by which to use it.

Oh and why in the 3 month rule 'nonsense'. Other EUcountries successfully implement it.

bakewelltarty Yes all polish from the two families, that turned up homeless at the council and after a while where given housing, sil works in housing

Rosstac, if true and the families had the exact same circumstances then I would wonder whether this was systematic- and if so, it would indicate an unfair bias on the part of the council; but then the onus is on THEM to treat everyone fairly, nothing to do with the EU. Indeed, if they are really so biased in favour of non natives then you'll have the same problem again with non EU families so ending fom won't solve your problem. The point is: if there is a problem here, it's a domestic one. Brexit won't improve it.
And yes, there will always be immigration, the question is how much is the UK government willing to invest into suitable infrastructure?

Rosstac I am a Brit living in Belgium. Dh and I were subject to the three month rule. It's not nonsense; here they implement it very well. If you haven't got work in that time, then you have to leave. We in the UK had the opportunity to implement exactly the same rule; but our national government chose not to do so. That was a national not an EU decision.

Rosstac you may know that I have no way of knowing - anecdote is not data.

I agree that if someone is here illegally then there are processes to deport them.

Why is the hire of an interpreter, the exposure to other cultures and languages, the integration of immigrants not helpful to children in your grand daugther's class? The teacher is teaching all the children so there is no 'holding back' on the education of the children in that class - unless you know that from in school progress data as part of the school's senior leadership team/a governor/senior person in the education authority/ofsted inspector of that school. Again anecdote is not data.

The UK could have implemented the available FOM rules which would have restricted EU immigration to working people. But as a LEAVE voter who knew what they were voting for you knew all this before voting.

So see my last posting - is it immigration? Any immigration - colour/religion/EU/further afield?

So the ten polish children in your grandchildren's school are from the same family that were housed 'after a while' but before Brutish homeless families? Or have I read that wrong?

And why is you SiL disclosing what should be confidential information to you?

And if she is, is she disclosing all the relevant information or just the 'flavour' that suits a particular narrative?

Rosstac, I have a suggestion but it's never been popular here historically. Issuing every resident with an ID card would certainly provide transparency as to who is here. As a long term resident I would have welcomed it instead of the bureaucratic he'll that was getting a permanent residency card! It would give clarity on status and who is entitled to what. It works in many other EU countries that are perfectly democratic.

Or it doesn't have to be an id card, but some sort if formal registration.

And just so it's not misconstrued, this would apply to everyone including Brits.
My point is UK bureaucracy is very vague in that it relies heavily on circumstantial evidence; rules are very 'fluid ' and open to interpretation which I think makes management of immigration in particular very tricky and easily unfair.

Buteo see you can’t , you had to mention it, that is all you’ve got to control are borders,
My girlfriend and I and are two best mates drive from ( any EU country) via channel tunnel, we have no jobs no skill so to speak of, we stay with are mates, at this point the government don’t know we are in the country, we find some cash work, here and there, I have a bad accident, yes I use the free NHS, not paid a penny of NI, We carry on working for cash, we decided to claim jsa as we are housed with are mates and are actively seeking work, still working for cash and now claiming jsa, 6 months has gone by from entering the country, we find min wage jobs and rent a house, we can claim housing benefits, council tax benifits, that’s great because I don’t get that in Poland or free healthcare, And now we are in and out of work, claiming benefits, but no worry the government cant test are right to reside as the EU have taken The UK to the ECJ, so I’m not going to go home voluntarily

QuietRebel I agree with you - but it absolutely has to be ID cards/formal registration for everyone, not just foreign nationals. Because we all should know enough about history to know where that ends.

Quietrebel I agree with ID cards

JWIM Perhaps my sil was as outraged as the Uk people that had been on the list

Absolutely, which what I quickly added after my first post! That would be fraught with danger!

Rosstac and if we had a simple ID card/registration system, your hypothetical scenario would be very different - because the moment you and your gf came into contact with the NHS, it would be apparent that you had no right to be here (no NI numbers, no tax history) and so you would be removed. Simple. And that option was always available to the UK government; they just chose not to implement it. Nothing to do with the EU.

Dominic Raab is apparently saying that Brussels needs to stop talking about 'No Deal' because it's endangering the prospect of a deal. I've heard it all now. The EU 27 has to stop speaking openly about a very real possibility, shouldn't prepare for it and should stop being transparent in the way they have been about everything just far. Because it doesn't suit the UK government who are doing the actual leaving.

Funnily enough all the shops are full of rainbow unicorn themed tat... Coincidence?

So i think we're all in agreement that a fair and transparent system implemented by the UK government would go a long way to improving things.
Also, in case of new countries joining, it was always possible to have a buffer before FOM is allowed in all EU countries (such as Poland back then) to give them a few years to catch up economically. The posted workers directive also needs to go ( but I believe that's going anyway) so there is no unfair competition between EU workers.
All that could be achieved without brexit.

bakewelltarty no 6 are from the two families, the rest from another two families that life together in a 4 bed house, no I don’t know the sleeping arrangements

Outraged enough to disclose ?some confidential information that came to her as part of her employment?

So again - immigration - that's it? Who will you move on to to expel after the EU nationals? And how? Perhaps you feel the UK Home Office hostile environment towards the Windrush generation actually hit the mark and we should not be totally embarassed at what was done by our Government in our name?

Basically it's like with a 40 year old house: we all agree it needs refurbishment. What's the cheapest most sensible option: update the kitchen and bathroom, maybe some rewiring and new flooring or tear it all down to its very foundations?

Just a reminder - still waiting on those positive plans going forward from LEAVE voters who knew what they were voting for to deal with any one of the 700+ agreements we fall out of when we leave the EU.

I posed the matters that need addressing for aviation but happy to read of other plans for one of the many other agreements.

Maybe - will we want to honour the trade agreements with the poorest African nations and set up our own bilateral trade agreements so that they are not subject to high tariffs on their major trade in a limited number of agricultural commodities?

JWIMs posts remind me of a lawyers... Why should a leaver be able to give answers on detailed aviation law and just because no one does how can you conclude that we didn't know what we were voting for? I can't see how remainers knew what they voted for either.

The EU was set up in a way to stop any one from leaving, so they are partly to blame if this is complicated. We knew it wasn't going to be a walk in the park but we voted to leave the EU anyway. Its parliaments job to sort out our new relationship when we have left the EU so no one is going to have the answers remainers want until the government has negotiated them.

When the politicians have come to an agreement then everyone can change and amend the rules or agreements to implement them. Then the lawyers/civil servants can all go and drain the blood from a different country.

As for FOM I remember last year when the UK tried to deport homeless people from the EU. Unfortunately courts said NO, they had a right to 'reside' in any EU country they wanted. I think a lot of remainers live in a ivory tower where the EU is a utopia because the law says it is and they never have to put up with looking for council housing or this children's school being filled with people who cant speak English....

Basically it's like with a 40 year old house: we all agree it needs refurbishment. What's the cheapest most sensible option: update the kitchen and bathroom, maybe some rewiring and new flooring or tear it all down to its very foundations?

Or maybe its more like tied in membership of a local gym where the T&Cs have become to onerous to most voters. The gym could change their terms but have refused to do so.

So the best option is to move to a pay as you go membership, which is more expensive but means we can now shop around and get the cheaper and better deals at all the other gyms.