Still Not the Brexit Arms

[Bearbehind]

Gosh the old thread has been busy today!

Not got time to catch up just yet but putting this one here for later.

Bearbehind, I am sorry you dont understand, I imagine most remainers don't. Leaving the EU is a preference, a belief, a choice. It can only be 'felt' or explained in emotive terms. We want to leave the EU because we prefer to be ruled by the UK rather than the EU (and so on). It wasn't a straight calculation based upon which ruler would charge us the least.

Its worth it because that preference is so strongly desired, any/most negative impacts will be a price worth paying. You are never going to understand that because you don't desire it.

I appreciate that's because you haven't thought that far ahead Obviously that's a remainer perspective. You have calculated (rightly or wrongly) that you will be richer in ten years. A leaver has calculated that in two/ten years time we will be out of the EU, different priorities. Why should a Brexiteer calculate their future based on your priorities?

You are stuck in a bubble and it will just make you angry. The majority of voters live in a different bubble. Why do you keep asking questions to which there is no answer that will satisfy you?

WE ARE RULED BY THE SOVEREIGN PARLIAMENT OF THE U.K.

I'm going to lie down in a dark room now.

WE ARE RULED BY THE SOVEREIGN PARLIAMENT OF THE U.K.

And yet when people dont like the rulings of the UK supreme court they go to Europe to get them overturned.

Government wants to pass a law. Computer says yes, the EU says NO, UK is forced to do what it is told...

If the UK was always sovereign then remainers should be happy that our sovereign parliament is exercising its sovereignty and is democratically choosing leave the EU and pass its own laws.

I'm going to lie down in a dark sovereign room now.

The GFA/Belfast Agreement was great at the time but with hindsight all it has done is give us some breathing space for a new generation to grow up.

Shame on you. SHAME ON YOU.

The GFA was the will of the people. More so than Brexit - it had a large majority. In polling, it is still the will of the people - by an even bigger majority! Yet Brexit gets to overrule it out of convenience to you and people like you, who claim it’s had its day. Utterly shameful.

The GFA was the will of the people How is that working for Stormont over the past couple of years? The Belfast agreement was the start of peace, its wasn't the end of the problems.

it had a large majority More people voted for Brexit than voted for the Belfast agreement, I dont think that is helpful, they are two different things.

Parliament - our sovereign parliament - has given certain powers as part of the separation of powers to other legal bodies. Brexit will not stop this. Depending on the type of Brexit the European Court will continue to do so after Brexit but we will have no say in what those laws are.

The ECHR will still have power over parliament after Brexit. In an international world this will become increasingly common. If you want no international body to have no legal oversight then you need to dig a hole and go and hide in it.

You may well get your Brexit and still have to do what you are told by the EU but with no say in it. Don't you get that yet?

The ECHR will still have power over parliament after Brexit
So why are remainers so upset, if they will be ruled by the EU before and after Brexit i dont get why they are complaining?

EHCR = European Court of Human Rights. It is not part of the EU.

Remainers get irritated because some supporters of Brexit don't understand how the country is governed.

My point was it is not just the EU that has legal powers/influence over the U.K. parliament. We live in an increasingly international world where no country will be a political or legal island.

Remainers get 'upset' as the country will suffer economically to regain the feelz of a sovereignty we have not lost. We will lose any say in laws we will, in all probability, still have to abide by.

Its worth it because that preference is so strongly desired, any/most negative impacts will be a price worth paying.

I very much doubt that is the case except for a few fanatics. Most people are interested in keeping a roof over their heads, putting food on the table, and making sure there is a school for their children and health services for the family.

Part of the reason that May went and lost her majority in last year's election wasn't over Brexit; it was over the dire funding situation in schools being highlighted.

What I struggle with , is who do Leavers believe ?

Sovereignty - Theresa May said we had never really lost it in the first place. So do they believe her ?

I wonder what Walkingdeadfangirl makes of all the contracts they have with companies that prevent - or require - certain obligations ?

Because - write large - membership of the ECHR is something the UK chose to enter into (and choses to abide by the rulings).

It seems some people have visions of tanks rolling down the Mall and not moving until the UK signed up. When, of course, the reality was more akin to theUK rolling tanks across Europe until the rest of Europe signed that subversive British document, the ECHR.

The ECHR, made in Britain. One of the few things made in Britain that (a) still works, and (b) still has some respect across the globe.

I await (in vain) the slew of facts proving me wrong.

So technetium? And aviation?

And while we’re bewailing the EU courts crushing our doughty British laws, presumably we have a set of numbers demonstrating the overwhelming frequency of these terrible events?

I am still waiting for a Leaver to tell me about an EU law which impinges on their day to day life. To make it easier it doesn't have to be one which we either agreed to or better still a law that we sponsored. So you only have to look at the 5% or so of laws which we didn't agree with. Despite making this task easier, no-one has been able to tell me.

More people voted for Brexit than voted for the Belfast agreement.

Rubbish. Not only did more people vote for the GFA than for Brexit, the turnout for the GFA referendum was significantly higher.

676966 people voted for the GFA, 71.1% of the vote (turnout of 81.1%).

349442 people voted to Leave, just 44.2% of the vote (turnout of 62.7%).

Do the Dutch feel any less Dutch, or the Germans feel any less German from being in the EU? Of course not, it's just another layer. Why can't Brexiteers accept another layer? Where's the hurt? And the EU rules so hated by Brexiteers, which ones? The care and justice for all that are the basis of the rules, what's so bad about them? Surely anyone must see that it's better to be aligned with Neighbour with similar histories and similar ethics than those of, say, the US, Mexico, Brazil, Peru, Columbia, Africa, who have totally different cultures, ethics, justice systems, infrastructures? For me, it's not that I need to be in the EU, but that it just makes absolute sense. Better to have very, very similar people travelling in to fullful our employment needs, with some staying, than the same happening from the other countries we will make the trade deals with.

@Peregrina To be fair there are some weird directives and regulations coming from the EU. MIFID 2 and bonus caps in fin svcs as two examples. And these will affect some people's daily lives.

The first is a monster but it was driven mainly by the UK!

The second is an annoyance that could have been dangerous if there had not been loopholes.

My point: the EU is not perfect but then neither is the UK.

Sacrebleu My brother can quote some obscure EU directive about bus transport, which is not particularly advantageous to us. The point he makes about this, is that our Government had the opportunity to make representations to improve the legislation, as suggested by the bus industry, but chose not to, and accepted flawed legislation. So - no grounds for complaint when you can't be bothered.

DB voted Remain, and there are loopholes and workrounds in the above mentioned bus regs.

There are lots of things about the EU I have issues with. The are things about The UN, and NATO I have issues with. There are issues within the organisation I work for. I have some issues with voluntary organisations I am in.

I can find things I disagree with in almost any organisation, however, I don't stamp my feet and leave. I stay and argue my point and try to make changes.

Very occasionally, I've had a Leaver comment on the smoking ban, and/or various grumbles about metrication. The latter has been older folk who (unlike anyone born after 1966) did not grow up with metrication as standard.

However (and it fucking well was widely discussed at the time) both those issues were actually decided on and implemented by the UK government who - for whatever reason we will never know[1] decided to create the most extreme rules in the EU.

[1]I'm guessing it was inveterate Sir Humphreys in the civil service who love rules. The more the merrier.

For a sneeze of time, I was very clued up on metrology, and I know the EUs regulations were actually quite lax, but they were trumped by the sovereignty of the UK parliament. (Something which Barnier commented on yesterday ...)

How about road signs ? Anyone ever wondered why they have quite a similar look and feel across the world ? It's because countries agreed it.

The first plans for metrication were drawn up in the mid 19th Century. Yes, you have read the number right.

DGR - yes to extreme rules - something has just been brought in to do with package holidays. Once again the UK has gone way beyond what the EU requires. Oh, it's so handy to blame the EU for their incompetence.

The first plans for metrication were drawn up in the mid 19th Century. Yes, you have read the number right.

Long gone now but a gem of Englands industrial heritage was the weighing museum at the Avery works in Smethwick. Some unique (not just rare) pieces, including 3,000 year old Egyptian hand scales carried by merchants.

Avery, of course (technically Avery-Berkel) were swallowed up by GEC-Marconi in the 1970s, and thrown under a bus as that former British behemoth collapsed into oblivion in the early noughties.

I was in Spain a few days after the UK smoking ban. You'd never have believed the Spanish and UK smoking bans were reflections of the same EU law. Interestingly enough, Spain had what seemed like much better disabled facilities provision - by law - than the UK does today.

I was discussing with friends that we might have to end up leaving the EU in stages. eg:

1. We leave the single market but stay in the customs union
2. UK realises we have no say in our own trade deals, so in a few years we end up leaving the Customs Union (but still governed by the ECJ).
3. The EU beings in some new stupid rule that the UK gets enraged by and decide to leave the ECJ. Or some variation there of. Its not what I want and it wont be good for our country but I can see if remainers get their way it might be dragged out over decade's.

Yes, it would be terrible for our country to have reliable medical supplies like technetium-99m.

technetium-99m And if the EU became anti-trade and started refusing to sell it then we are screwed because its the only place in the world that sells it. I might have to reconsider my Brexit position.