Still Not the Brexit Arms

[Bearbehind]

Gosh the old thread has been busy today!

Not got time to catch up just yet but putting this one here for later.

"There's always violence..." What an attitude!

doesn't mean I agree with it, just a statement of FACT.

Well, I would like to hear your solutions fangirl because you seem so sure of yourself.

So you keep a common travel area, but somehow have to exclude other EU citizens. How do you do that without some sort of border?
I can remember that Ireland used to be described as the backdoor to the UK, usually when talking of US criminals sliding in.

So you keep a common travel area, but somehow have to exclude other EU citizens. How do you do that without some sort of border?

Hopefully you agree this has to do with changing 'legal' migration. Because neither the UK or Ireland is in Schengen so we are both trying to stop illegal immigration.

So your worried that legal citizens of the EU are going to choose to become illegal migrants into the UK via Ireland? Cant see that happening!

But say it does, given the EU is a 'safe destination' what is to stop the UK from deporting them as soon as they try to get a job, house, benefits, healthcare etc.

Who are these EU citizens that will give up legal living in the supposed EU utopia who will want to come to the post EU destitute UK to become salve labour and live in illegal slum housing without healthcare or benefits?

I am just baffled by your argument.

Walkingdead my point is that the Leave campaign and leavers who knew what they were voting for therefore knew that the 40+ years of UK as a Member State of the EEC/EC/EU involved the UK entering in to a vast number of legal agreements. Therefore the Leave campaigners and leave voters who knew what they were voting for know that the UK will be leaving those legal relationships and will need to establish new legal relationships in order for the UK to interact, not just with the EU Member States, but also all the other ancillary trade/cultural/transport etc agreements with 3rd countries that the UK currently has as an EU Member State.

There may be some of those 700+ EU negotiated agreements that are not important to the UK so our Leave Government may have decided not to pursue new legal arrangements with the 3rd party countries. However, Leave Campaigners and leave voters who knew what they were voting for have already said that they expect the same benefits to be maintained for the UK once it leaves the EU in a number of legal relationships. What they, and our Leave Government have yet to do, is secure new legal agreements with those 3rd countries.

Let's just take aviation as an example. The UK aviation industry is regulated by an EU agency (EASA) where members are EU/EEA/EFTA Member States. This has been the case for some years. Leave campaigners and leave voters ho knew what they were voting for would know the terms of EASA aviation regulation and the agreements made by EASA for its members (EU/EEA/EFTA Member States) with 3rd parties - the aviation Regulatory bodies and Governments of 3rd countries. Leaving the EU means leaving EASA because, as leave campaigners and leave voters who knew what they were voting for know, that agency is for EU/EEA/EFTA member states and leaving the EU means leaving EASA. By the way, suggesting that we choose to stay with the EASA is not a simple answer because there would need to be a new legal relationship between the EASA and the UK, the EASA members would need to agree the terms and there may be break clauses in the EASA agreements with 3rd party countries that would require those countries to also agree to any terms offered to a non EU/EEA/EFTA UK by EASA. That's before we even consider the leave campaigners, leave voters who knew what they were voting for and our UK leave Government's red line of removing the UK from the jurisdiction of the ECJ - because the ECJ is the final legal jurisdiction for the EU agency EASA.

What leave campaigners, leave voters who knew what they were voting for and our leave Government have not done, nor seem to be doing, is carrying out the necessary work to replace all that EASA covers currently for the UK. So on leaving the EU we will have a functioning aviation industry with the correct operational legal agreements in place.

This may seem very dry/dull but it is just a practical matter that needs to be dealt with. It should be no surprise to any leave campaiger, or leave voter who knew what they were voting for, or our Leave Government. For the 3rd party countries (Governments and Regulatory Bodies) there is no automatic right that the UK can continue to operate flights/aircraft safety/qualification recognition to those 3rd countries and on leaving the EU that will include EU/EEA/EFTA member states.

In the absence of replacement legal agreements the UK will be unable to operate under more than 700+ EU negotiated agreements. We hve yet to establish what our WTO status is, or what current EU negotiated quotas may or may not be allocated to the UK under WTO rules - and again that means getting the agreement of the 3rd countries who are the counterparties to those quota agreements.

So if Leave campaigners and leave voters who knew what they voted for and our Leave Government know about all these legal agreements that will fall away on leaving the EU why are none of you doing anything about it. As a Leave voter who knew what you were voting for, surely you want leaving the EU to be a success, for the UK to continue to be the world's 5th or better largest economy, to have legal relationships with 3rd countries via the EU replaced with direct legal relationships, for new rights to fly to be in place when our EASA membership and rights to participate in 'Open Skies' with all those other 3rd countries ends as we leave the EU, and on, and on, and on with all those other legal agreements.

So what are any of you (Leave campaigners, leave voters who knew what they were voting for, our Leave government) doing to ensure that financial/legal success is achieved along with the soundbites of Brexit means Brexit, we are leaving the EU, red white and blue Brexit, etc?

As well as stocking up on rice pudding , it might be worth getting some of these
www.amazon.co.uk/OASIS-WATER-PURIFICATION-TABLETS-Survival/dp/B01MDOYXL9/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=water+purification+tablets+for+drinking&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1532067585&sr=8-4

Suggesting rice pudding and the like because it can be eaten cold , doesn't need to be refrigerated or frozen. Think along the lines of what you can eat without cooking, so if no power or limited power supply.

Just a little heads up from a government leaflet coming to your doormat soon

So that will be imported rice pudding then as I am not aware that rice can be grown in the UK.

I am not surprised you are baffled by my argument fangirl since I didn't argue, but again asked a straight question. You have to be fair tried to answer with: I don't think this, why would that but you haven't got any real solutions that I see.

A big argument for many Leavers was to control immigration and stop Freedom of Movement. Some posters on these threads are honest enough to admit that was their reason. (They get themselves tied up in knots with N Ireland because many were blithely unaware that if the UK leaves, N Irish citizens under the GFA could claim Irish citizenship so be both an EU citizen and not an EU citizen, if they claimed British citizenship, without having moved an inch from the place they were born.)

But for other EU citizens there will need to be some sort of border post. Border posts have come in a variety of flavours from one man lounging outside a hut with a raised barrier, waving cars through, or the full works of armed guards and barbed wire as in the ex eastern bloc, but either way, it's a border. It's not like driving from Manchester to London say.

Good questions JWIM and while we're there, do you think you could do a follow-up question about EURATOM and how Leave campaigners and leave voters who knew what they voted for and our Leave Government envisage securing the supplies of Technetium-99m, this being a rather important radioisotope for life-saving medical treatments?

54321 Semolina pudding then ?

I am a lawyer and have participated in international discussions in one (v important) UK services sector with UK Govt departments negotiating with 3rd country equivalents.

In considering the referendum I knew there would be a lot of legal agreements to 'untangle' if the UK were to leave the EU - more a legal 'gut feel' than detailed knowledge. Even I am staggered at the number of 3rd party agreements (over 700) that are now 'in play' for the UK to deal with.

I am aware of the links for my area of expertise - and it will be a significant loss to the UK exchequer however we structure going forward because jobs/business written is already relocated to EU member states. I also had a reasonable idea on aviation. I had a very clear idea on Customs, tariffs and borders. Also a very clear idea on how international treaties such as the Good Friday/Belfast/Peace Agreement. But road haulage licences, radio isotopes and the fact they can't be stockpiled and aren't produced at all in the UK (science not my strongest academic area!), the many, many trade/product specific agreements with countries around the world.

I absolutely loathe rice pudding and semolina and all those sickly puds...

Unless you are sub normal, its not difficult to see that what ever customs/border you have at Dover, you also have to have at the NI/EU border OR have separate arrangements for NI and all that will cause.

This is the issue brixitiers cant seem to grasp

Has anyone else notice TM cannot say 'day' if it's at the end of the word.

She says Mondee, yesterdee.

Really gets on my nerves.

A good dollop of jam improves all rice and associated puddings vastly, I have a very good vintage raspberry jam that I am saving for such occasions Pointy or you could opt for spam, although I am not sure jam would improve it , but it is always worth a try

Classic remainer answers. Unless you get a remainer Brexit where you are advised a year in advance that the UK will be ruled by the EU in exactly the same way on the 1st of April 2019, as it was the day before, then you are traumatised. Its almost like you deliberately dont actually want to accept that we are leaving the EU.

The EU has created a club where leaving is possible in name only, so that it can further the EU project of a United States of Europe. Therefore the EU is overwhelmingly culpable in relation to what is now happening.

The UK has not been allowed to start negotiating a trade deal with the EU until it agrees a backstop to stay in the EU if the EU refuses to agree a trade deal . Most Brexiteers were aware a trade deal would be easy if both sides wanted one, whilst aware that if the EU tried to stop us leaving then we would have a turbulent exit.

So the ball is in the EUs court, a deal like TM has proposed or we both walk away, take the hit and negotiate after we have left, like adults. Most Leavers are ok with that. No one voted to leave the EU only if the EU permitted us to to leave.

Perhaps some remainers could explain why they aren't kicking up an unholy fuss about the EU commission being led by an alcoholic? Why are you so keen to stay subservient to such a shit show, aren't you ashamed?

fangirl no one is interested in your rhetoric and sound bites.

Either engage in discussion about the actual situation or potter off the the DM comments section- your people are there.

Fangirl I am honestly trying to work out what he did wrong in either of those clips ?

Why are you so keen to stay subservient to such a shit show, aren't you ashamed

Because we are not, the UK can pretty much govern itself.

So we ve a shit NHS, Roads and infrastructure, France and Germany do not.

Sorry I disagree Bear - posters like fangirl and others have a very important role in getting their message across, whichever side we’re on.

elements 😂😂😂

no one is interested in your rhetoric and sound bites I know. That is why the UK is divided, remainers aren't interested in what leaving the EU actually means to Brexiteers and Leavers cant explain Brexit in remainers language (we have been around that circle many times). There is a cultural divide, I get that, but you dont seem to be interested in crossing it.

The majority of the UK electorate decided we are leaving, if you want to engage then you have to try and understand Brexiteers. If you want to stay in a remainer bubble then no one can help you.

I am honestly trying to work out what he did wrong in either of those clips ?
Umm he was pissed whilst he was running/representing the EU. If that were the UK he would he hounded out of office within 24 6 hours, like Charlie Kennedy was. Why do you not care that the EU commission is led by an alcoholic? Its one of the reasons we are leaving!

There is a cultural divide, I get that, but you dont seem to be interested in crossing it.

No, because you are completely incapable of explaining what leaving actually means except for 'feelings'

You can't explain why this shit show is worth it other than to reel off a list of things we had / could have done anyway.

I appreciate that's because you haven't thought that far ahead, hence my reluctance to bother conversing with you, because it's pointless.

What special language could we have to explain ensuring reliable supplies of technetium-99m for medical treatments in the event of a crash out?

Also JWIM’s questions up thread about aviation?