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Brexit

Westministenders: High Drama at The Ok Coral

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/07/2018 22:38

3:00 p.m. Wednesday, October 26, 1881, Tombstone, Arizona.

After months of death threats from the Cowboy Billys, their long simmering feud with the law thing came to a head. The Earp Brothers and Doc Holliday faced the criminals down in a shootout.

Tomorrow's 'sleepover' is starting to feel like the Gunfight at the OK Coral.

The outcome of the real story was three of the outlaws were killed. Another two claimed they were unarmed and ran from the fight. Virgil, Morgan, and Doc Holliday were wounded, but Wyatt Earp was unharmed.

How many Brexiteers can we expect to roll over and resign from the Cabinet and how many will surrender to May and the Pro-Business lobby? ONly time will tell.

Please place your bets for the number of resignations and the number of 'I support the PM' comments.

But don't get too excited. The showdown wasn't the end of the matter.

One of the outlaws who legged it, filed murder charges against the Earps and Doc Holliday. It took them some time for them to be acquitted.

Then Virgil Earp was ambushed and disabled in the arm later that year in December and Morgan Earp was assassinated in March 1882. Wyatt Earp, then thinking he had no other option, went on a personal vendetta to kill the outlaws and then fled the state.

Given the Tory Cabinet and the perchant for stabbing each other in the back and settling personal scores, a repeat of a wild west gun fight, really doesn't sound too wildly off the cards now does it?

Buckle up. Its time to play at Chequers.

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Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 21:08

KEY POINTS: 1) May talks about a new UK-EU free trade area. It will have a common rule book for good and agriculture. Parliament oversight for incorporation of these rules.
2) No common rulebook for services. May wants regulatory flexibility “recognising the UK and the EU will not have current leaves of access to each other’s markets”

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woman11017 · 06/07/2018 21:12

but is it acceptable to EU
It took 14 year for these islands to get in the Eu. It's over.

SwedishEdith · 06/07/2018 21:23

Javid originally (pre-ref) wanted freedom of movement only for people from rich countries. So, if your country was shafted, so were you.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 21:34

Beth Rigby @ bethrigby
10) To conclude; at first glance this document is a Remainers’ dream. A soft Brexit, which keeps UK aligned to EU. Breixteers will hate it. But... looks like no-ones walked

If a remainders dream is allowing services to be decimated by not being in the single market, yes.

But at least alignment with EU not US...

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RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 21:35

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
This from Theresa May’s letter to Tory MPs tonight is significant

One word of criticism and you’re out...

Give it until the time the Sunday papers come out. Especially if England lose.

Westministenders: High Drama at The Ok Coral
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RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 21:36

Simon Hix @ simonjhix
Not sure yet what this all means. But watch out: “following EU rules” for goods” means both product standards AND process standards (eg. working time, labour rights, environment rules etc). So, no “cutting Brussels red tape” then!

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RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 21:43

David Henig @ davidheniguk
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I'm afraid this is nonsensical fudge from the UK Government. Essentially they've changed the language from earlier, but not the approach. Brussels won't care tonight, but when the party dies down... 1/

Starting with the 'common rulebook'... there's no such thing, the single market is a continually evolving body of legislation, not a few rules you can commit to by treaty. The sentence "these rules are relatively stable" is truly ridiculous 2/

Others will be better placed to comment on the legal section, but I'm fairly sure that the explicit rejection of ECJ primacy is also a deal breaker when it comes to frictionless trade / single market 3/

The Facilitate Customs Agreement is presented suitably vaguely so no complaints there. Something for both parties to work towards over the next 10-20 years... 4/

Good luck with this on fisheries while trying to maintain a close relationship with the EU... 5/

As predicted, the independent trade policy is the sure sign that this is fudge. Even though the commitment to the Future Customs Arrangement is vague. CPTPP is new, and contains an annex on transparency in NHS drug prices which will be controversial 6/

We already know that ending the jurisdiction of the ECJ has huge regulatory consequences, and is another sign that this is pure fudge 7/

Finally and dropping back into services, alternate arrangements with less access, see the excellent @csgmoore article this morning t.co/fbPJn1C9SH 8/

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RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 21:46

Guido Fawkes @ guidofawkes
The key point here is that this is the UK’s opening offer to Brussels. The EU will now attempt to force us into an even softer Brexit. How do the government think this is going to play out?

Alex Wickham @ wikiguido
^So if Brussels looks at this and says sorry, it's EEA&CU or no deal, what does the govt do? Crash out after making no preparations? Call an election? Or accept full vassal status? Either way, Corbyn has got closer to No10 tonight.

What are May's alternatives? is another way of phrasing this though.

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54321go · 06/07/2018 21:51

It's a long way short of the EU's red lines. Almost like 'Jaffa cakes', are they cake or biscuit?

BestIsWest · 06/07/2018 21:53
Gin
prettybird · 06/07/2018 21:58

Am I being I being ignorant or is the Cabinet? but isn't it the case that if there is anything in the Withdrawal Agreement that relates to trade, then QMV amongst the E27 no longer applies, and it has to be unanimous? Confused not a snowflake's chance in hell in getting passed then Hmm

keyboardkate · 06/07/2018 21:58

Olly Robbins did well!

However, thinking about it, I wonder if it is couched in such a way that the EU might have to reject it, then it's hard crash out Brexit. All Brexiter Cabinet happy.

The PM will say that she gave it her best shot, compromised, put forward very generous well thought out proposals etc. etc. , but the EU refused to accept our proposals, therefore we have nothing more to offer so it's out tomorrow, no deal better than bad deal. Blah Blah.

Clever maybe. But stupid to crash out. So much to be agreed and so little time left.

Although I read elsewhere that Barnier is pleased with the outcome and looks forward to the White Paper.

Interesting times ahead.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 21:59

Faisal Islam @ faisalislam
UK Government meeting at Chequers agrees to [ask for] a “Free Trade Area for goods” including a “Facilitated Customs Arrangement” which would remove need for all border checks between UK and EU “as if a combined customs territory”

A customs union with the EU.

PM statement: “proposal establishes a common rule book for industrial goods and agricultural products”

Bit on ECJ jurisdiction sounds very much like an opening for Efta Court/ EEA...

Very unsurprising tbh. No alternative. Except ECJ itself

Common rule book for agrifood with EU - surely makes it impossible to adapt US agri standards - perhaps might try to do a narrow FTA outside of these parameters

Donald's gonna be pissed.

FCA sounds the same as the Customs Partnership that Boris Johnson called “crazy”. Big problem is it requires changes in every other EU country basically in order to give UK freedom to change tariffs - at a time when UK already sued at ECJ over applying existing rules...

Polite way of saying it's bollocks and will never survive the EU talks.

With this proposal UK Government believe the Ireland backstop will not need to be brought into effect - as this honours “letter and spirit” of Belfast Agreement

Close but no cigar.

This offer, says Government, should solve concerns of Airbus, BMW, JLR etc - the integrated supply chains/ Just in Time delivery - ie “frictionless access” rather than “as frictionless as possible”

Too little too late.

Essentially Take Back Control, but with that control, choose to maintain v similar arrangements for goods and agriculture but not service trade and immigration. Makes big point about freedom to join Trans Pacific Partnership...

What Donnie walked out of.

..anyway of course plenty of holes to pick at in this new approach, it consolidates pinkening of red lines but Brussels would be wise not to laugh this out of town - some building blocks for a conversation here...
Key - UK Government wants frictionless trade for big manufacturers

Key, government knows in order to win the next election it has to win crucial seats in the midlands where there is a lot of car manufacturing. If they don't get them, they are toast.

Indeed Barnier sends initial warmish response:

Michel Barnier @ michelbarner
#Chequers discussion on future to be welcomed. I look forward to White Paper. We will assess proposals to see if they are workable & realistic in view of #EUCO guidelines. Next negotiations w/ #UK on WP, & Withdrawal Agreement, w/c 16 July #Brexit

Code for: thank fuck for that! They've finally got round to having a starting point plan. Now I can actually do my job.

Faisal Islam @ Faisalislam
But why you would choose to lay out such tough red lines if you thought things might end up here - a bit of a mystery. How Brexiter Cabinet ministers have signed up to this a mystery.
“Can’t see how that can accept this and not look a laughing stock” - one former senior minister.

Cos they know they have no alternative and they can still force no deal and May's resignation. We had all the tough red lines, cos May had nfi what she was talking about before, and pennies have dropped since the GE.

Perhaps it was this bit - that preparations have been stepped up for “No Deal”. Given the Commission have published 70 preparedness notices for ordinary businesses, and UK Gov none, that would not be very hard.

Indeed. They still think they can force no deal. In fact they think it more not less likely.

For me big change is Cabinet decided it wants to maintain frictionless [not just ‘as possible’] EU trade - ie unwilling to introduce any frictions that imperil car industry/ Airbus jobs etc -so accept logic of total alignment and thus constraints on scope of new FTAs eg with US

Yep cos the penny has dropped that we'd have no business and the us wants to fleece us.

What's David Allen Green's phrase about bouncing off the walls of reality?

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RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 22:02

Alex Wickham @ wikiguido
For me big change is Cabinet decided it wants to maintain frictionless [not just ‘as possible’] EU trade - ie unwilling to introduce any frictions that imperil car industry/ Airbus jobs etc -so accept logic of total alignment and thus constraints on scope of new FTAs eg with US

See them chickens there that you are counting?

They are eggs.

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RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 22:08

Matthew Holehouse @ mattholehouse
Pretty much everything written on UK’s Brexit position pre-June 17 in the blender. Almost everything post (when civil service began releasing black ink) still stands. Quite an election.

But over 80% of people voted for a leave party...

Doesn't quite stand up does it?

And it reveals what's really important to the Tories. And just how much they fear losing to Corbyn...

Remember that time that Donald Tusk said "it's either hard brexit or no brexit"? And how in time we'd come to realise that.

Well. Look where we are now...

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BrexitWife · 06/07/2018 22:09

So basically businesses have shouted and the government followed.
No wonder Boris reaction was ‘f* businesses’.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 22:10

David Henig @ davidheniguk
A word though for the civil servants. This is amazing drafting. They have managed to produce a document that can be read as supporting either a hard or a soft Brexit. Obviously that's useless to the EU but great for the conservative party.

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woman11017 · 06/07/2018 22:11

Yep cos the penny has dropped
Some said it wasn't worth protesting and organising. Thank you all who did. Smile By no means good enough yet, but onwards......

20nil · 06/07/2018 22:15

Found you. Hello Smile but Sad state of affairs obviously. What a bunch of self serving, deluded, self indulgent twats we have in government.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2018 22:16

I think I'm gonna let the dust settle over night and see what happens tomorrow.

I DO think that the result of the football IS going to be important for what hits the newspapers on Sunday. A win, makes Brexiteers making noise less likely...

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woman11017 · 06/07/2018 22:31

A win, makes Brexiteers making noise less likely
Aren't men funny....
I do hope 'england' lose, for so many reasons.

54321go · 06/07/2018 22:33

How much longer before the bigger businesses say 'Sod the abattoir' and actually start moving? Sitting on the fence is no help to the people that actually make plans.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2018 22:34

I'm concerned that TM - always looking to survive the next day - may have promised the cabinet that if they all agreed Baldrick's plan and then the EU rejects it, she will go for hard brexit.

Or of course, some Brexiters are expecting the EU to reject it quickly and hence don't mind agreeing.
Barnier did some neat footwork to avoid this, by welcoming the statement

I totally agree with this unofficial assessment of Barnier's real opinion:
"thank fuck for that! They've finally got round to having a starting point plan. Now I can actually do my job. " Grin

However, this is the kind of statement that the Uk should have opened with in 2016, at the start of the negotiations

  • while also agreeing immediately to the 3 EU prerequisites for trade discussions: maintaining all existing rights for E27 / UK expats, no NI hard border, paying due bills.

If so, all heads of govt would have probably signed off the draft Withdrawal Agreement in June, as the original schedule required.

However, as a statement now …
far too little movement, far too late

BigChocFrenzy · 06/07/2018 22:40

pretty Yes, anything more than pious statements / meaningless platitudes on trade mean that the WA becomes a "mixed" agreement, i.e. including trade

hence any E27 country can veto it.
In fact, about 40 national & regional parliaments would have to approve the WA and any could veto

In contrast, without defined trade clauses, QMV just means the 27 heads of govt vote, as do the European Parliament and both need only a majority - maybe a minimum %, not a simple 50%+1; I'm too sleepy to check.

SusanWalker · 06/07/2018 22:40

I'm really enjoying watching JRM getting crosser and crosser. I'd love brexit to be cancelled for many reasons, one of which would be to watch him have a tantrum.

Quite childish of me I know, but I have had a tough week so must take my amusement where I can.

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