Westminstenders: Rebel or Reveal

[RedToothBrush]

The EU Withdrawal Bill made it through the Commons. Though May did not manage it unscathed.

In an attempt to divide and conquer the Rebels, May might have damaged trust. We shall find out. The Grieve Amendment faces the Lords. We also will see if the Lords will back down on their amendments or apply some new ones for the Commons to deal with in Parliamentary Ping Pong.

Aaron Banks has been exposed as being pally with the Russian Embassy in a plot twist that absolutely everyone saw coming.

Meanwhile the EU thinks we have already run out of time and is preparing options to extend talks beyond the a50 deadline. These include having MEPs for the 2019 - 2024 session.

There is also growing talk around Europe that freedom of movement in its current form is unsustainable. Ironically we might see the EU adopt something akin to Cameron's pre-referendum proposals as the EU reforms.

Theresa May has also announced - at a moment when she is looking particularly weak - a new tax for the NHS, cunningly disguised in spin as 'the Brexit dividend'. Of course shareholders don't always get dividends and at times of poor economic performance instead might be asked to stump up extra capital...Expect to see buses with £350 million of the side just in time for the next general election cycle.

And so the Zombie PM limbers on towards the end of the summer session and the relative safety of the summer holidays. More drama, cringing and disbelief guaranteed before we get there.

Most posters on these threads are against Brexit, but some are deep in despair and think we are helpless,
that resistance is pointless

Sometimes it is important to fight for what is right, even when you will almost certainly lose

(However, we must respect the fact that some genuinely don't have the spare energy, or have commitments or logistical problems)

Reminds me of the skit on Eurotunnel many years back with the TGV hurtling into the tunnel at Calais and a little steam train appearing at Dover.

It was a bit like that of course. I remember the first time I went on Eurostar - it chugged away on the old line, went through the tunnel and then whoosh picked up speed like nobodies business.

I sympathise andshe, insomuch as I too am deeply worried about the broader world picture. It’s all grim and Brexit is just one element of something bigger and more terrifying. But marching isn’t always about changing things immediately. It’s about solidarity and doing the right thing during a terrible time. Acts of resistance are more effective because they’re cumulative.

However, we must respect the fact that some genuinely don't have the spare energy, or have commitments or logistical problems

Some, like my DD think that protesting against Trump's visit is worth more of her energy and meanwhile, she is working on her escape from the UK plan.

Frankie As I posted upthread, China is apparently willing and able to take over wing design & production
They have been touting this since long before Brexit, but the Airbus management never considered replacing the Uk before.

If the UK becomes a 3rd country, then it would be a 3rd country with higher wages / production costs than China
and - maybe just as important - a country with no power to certify parts, systems, sub-systems, materials, recycling etc
A country at Year Zero

Those of us who are old enough remember that the Poll Tax Riots Protests did have an impact - but only once the Poll Tax "experiment" was extended from Scotland to UK wide . Scotland's hatred of the Poll Tax hadn't been enough - it was only when it hit Middle England that the sentiment changed and the juggernaut of government policy began to move.

@BorderIrish
Brexit’s Got Talent is my least favourite TV show but at least it’s short

Yup, I remember the Scottish poll tax riots being the filler at the end of the news
much less important than rumours of pregnant Chinese pandas

Then suddenly England had to pay poll tax
and English riots finished off MrsT
(remember how she used to make very occasional trips to Scotland, in state, like a visiting foreign head of govt)

Spitting Image had Thatcher not knowing where Scotland was.....she knew it as "The Testing Ground"

Was the poll tax covertly supported by a foreign enemy power? Was it unopposed by Labour?

It’s not comparable.

I'm marching on Saturday - not in my name!

I'm afraid I'm very suspicious of people who tell us not to bother keeping up the fight. It's one thing if you don't have the mental energy yourself... but to actively tell those still resisting that there's no point... that's down right sinister.

Silence is complicity.

If everyone who didn't like brexit but thought there was no point resisting actually resisted then maybe we would achieve something - maybe the protests would be so big that someone would have to listen. But it all starts with the individual choice to keep fighting. Each of us are a single drop - but together we are an ocean.

The question isn't 'why protest?' - the question is 'why not?' We're not hurting anybody and it makes us feel better. And then there is posterity. Ever wondered why everyone in 1930s Germany just went along with the Nazis?... Now I realise that probably didn't. there was a mixture of people who supported, people who kept their heads down, people who thought 'why bother' and brave people who resisted. But their voices got lost. The good thing about our resistance is that with the internet and 24 hour news footage - there will always be evidence that the whole of Britain were not rabid brexiteers - or complicit with their silence - defeatists who just let it happen. My name appears on petitions which will exist in the ether forever. My image already appears on video footage of protests- hopefully I will be captured on film again at the weekend. I'm a nobody - but I am nobody that will be a proven remainer and part of the resistance for anybody who cares to look into it for decades to come. And that is enough for me.

Not in my name.

But anybody trying to talk others out of fighting ought to be ashamed of themselves (and asking why bother over and over again is attempting to talk people out of it - it is an active attempt to discourage).
Don't fight the worst thing that has happened to our country since ... forever... if you can't be arsed, but don't try and talk other people out of fighting.

Silence is the enemy. Resistance is never futile.

But the Poll Tax being tested on Scotland did serve to wipe out the Tories there for a generation and sow some seeds for Devolution/Independence. May, by riding roughshod over Scotland may have unleashed something she can't control.

Fine, I’m a nazi.

Good grief.

No - but the point is that when it started impacting people directly in their pockets, in parts of the country that had Tory MPs mattered to the government then they got angry at the government - and it did eventually "do" for Margaret Thatcher - and although Major won the election in 1992 against all expectations , he had such a small majority that the trials and tribulations of his government led to Blair's success in 1997.

I fully acknowledge that the situation today is far more complicated: an external false "enemy" scapegoat in the EU, interference by foreign powers and disaster capitalists/oligarchs who have an interest in chaos, an ineffective opposition who actually want disaster .

But the point is that protest did eventually make a difference.

And even if it doesn't, why do we bother telling our kids, "If you don't ask, you won't get" or "You've got to at least try" ?

Small steps.

Just did a search for the words "Single Market" on the 2015 Conservative manifesto www.bond.org.uk/data/files/Blog/ConservativeManifesto2015.pdf
can any of the more learned people following this please look at this and explain to me how their proposed referendum at the time is saying we will leave the Single Market?

Two years on I am still struggling to understand how we are in this mess. I watched the Lords' debate live earlier this week - there were about 400+ people doing the same and the number of Tommy Robinson related comments were chilling. For those that watched I am guessing the same people were out in force online today?

For the protest last March quite a number of people tried to get in cancelled, but 100,000 of us marched anyway. Then the BBC chose to ignore it making a UKIP defector, Carswell was it, the main news item.

As to who did or did not go along with the Nazis - there was another category of people who were against or certainly not for them, who didn't know what to do, so didn't do anything. Marching may be futile, but I will have made a statement. Also 18 months ago having a one time Remain MP who conveniently forgot that, made me get actively involved in politics to do my best to get her voted out, which we succeeded in doing.

I'm sure I've posted this before on these threads - but is very apt when it comes to the 'why protest' question:

I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway - and you see it through no matter what.
Atticus Finch

Sometimes the fight is enough. Doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do even with no expectation of success, is still worthwhile.
It is right to make sure TM understands she does not have the backing of the entire country - even if she won;t change her course.
It is right to show our friends in Europe that this is something that is being done to us - and not something we want or approve of - even if it is done to us anyway.
Protesting is simply the right thing to do. It is never wrong to do the right thing. And I would argue it is never worthless to do the right thing - even if it is doomed to failure. You should do it anyway. because it is right.

It is important to show the EU - who may keep a close eye on such signs - that many people want to Remain.
If it helps even a tiny bit to show that the UK is not a lost cause, it might tip the balance at some time when they have decisions to make

It's when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway

This reminds me of someone talking about principles once. I don't remember the exact words, but they were to the effect that if at the point of your principles being tested you drop them, then they were never principles.

There are times though when I worry about sticking to something out of pig-headedness, which seem to be traits which both Thatcher and May shared. Is marching on Saturday a stubborn refusal to accept the reality? No, we haven't left yet, so it's not a reality. The work necessary to give Brexit a chance of being a success hasn't even been started, and I am still convinced that Brexit will damage the country, so yes, it's worth marching.

If we crash out then there will be a different reality, which might necessitate a different form of protest.

Quite icant. And that's why i'll be there (but perhaps without the kids as the novelty has worn off for them)

Awake stupidly early worrying yet again 😔

I wish I could march with you on Saturday. Living in the arse end of nowhere has its drawbacks 😩

Wrt the Japanese car industry...I live sort of near a large plant. If they go it will cause huge unemployment in that area.

There is a huge supermarket depot being built near here....its still going ahead which utterly baffles me! What are they going to fill it with post 29/3/19?

Time to get things in place:
Food
Some ready cash
Meds

Because....honestly....I foresee bad times ahead.

I'm hoping some of you are right and it's temp and they "only" result is higher prices.

But....

I agree Icantreach.

And the other good thing about marching is that it makes you feel good to be amongst so many like-minded people. Not alone. It's galvanising and encouraging. I've experienced such a mutually supportive, friendly atmosphere on marches. (It makes a change from being with friends and colleagues, who never even mention Brexit.)

Peregrina you asked a page back why the Tories fear a Corbyn government, as Labour seem to be going along with Brexit... A good point! But I feel that many more reasonable Tories are voting for measures they're probably not totally happy with, in order to stop the government falling/letting Corbyn in. In fact, I bet they're being whipped with that threat...

A question;

If an EU citizen is "stuck" here when the shit hits the fan....

What happens?

Contact their consulate and ask for assistance to leave?

I'm another one who couldn't sleep and got up stupidly early, although it's a reasonable getting up time now. I caught up with reading yesterday's paper and read an article in the Guardian about how the far right hope to wrest control of the EU, and how we must not let that happen.

If that were the case, then I would be glad we were not involved, but then I couldn't help but think, wouldn't our own far right be desperate to get back into the club?