Westminstenders: Rebel or Reveal

[RedToothBrush]

The EU Withdrawal Bill made it through the Commons. Though May did not manage it unscathed.

In an attempt to divide and conquer the Rebels, May might have damaged trust. We shall find out. The Grieve Amendment faces the Lords. We also will see if the Lords will back down on their amendments or apply some new ones for the Commons to deal with in Parliamentary Ping Pong.

Aaron Banks has been exposed as being pally with the Russian Embassy in a plot twist that absolutely everyone saw coming.

Meanwhile the EU thinks we have already run out of time and is preparing options to extend talks beyond the a50 deadline. These include having MEPs for the 2019 - 2024 session.

There is also growing talk around Europe that freedom of movement in its current form is unsustainable. Ironically we might see the EU adopt something akin to Cameron's pre-referendum proposals as the EU reforms.

Theresa May has also announced - at a moment when she is looking particularly weak - a new tax for the NHS, cunningly disguised in spin as 'the Brexit dividend'. Of course shareholders don't always get dividends and at times of poor economic performance instead might be asked to stump up extra capital...Expect to see buses with £350 million of the side just in time for the next general election cycle.

And so the Zombie PM limbers on towards the end of the summer session and the relative safety of the summer holidays. More drama, cringing and disbelief guaranteed before we get there.

So roughly speaking the EU made concessions the the UK to allow special treatment of Gibraltar which I am assuming does not 'make' a sufficient quantity of goods to make 'hard' border controls worthwhile?

Gibraltars problem is simple geography. Whilst it has an airport, most ingress/egress is via road which has to pass into Spain. Famously Spain are rather aggrieved that they have to endure a legacy of Empire in such a way. (We'll leave for one moment the fact that Gibraltars status was ceded by Treaty).

As part-of-the-EU-thru-the-UK, that border has to be ... well seamless. With the UK outside the EU ???????????????

Spain has always been ansty about the border - and without any legal compunction to the contrary could make it very difficult to cross. And I can't see the UK mounting a "Gibraltar airlift" to make a point. Unless there are some carrier pigeon enthusiasts that would be willing to step in ?

I believe if you are a resident here then you must carry them with you at all times, as if asked for by the police you must show them.

This was the most ludicrous part of the previous scheme when it came to "cracking down on immigration".

Policeman: "Stop ! May I see your identity card".
Stoppee: "I don't need one, I'm a UK citizen"
Policeman: "Very good sir/madam. Carry on.".

Personally, for me, the bit I refuse to accept - and never will - is the sudden appearance of a law requiring me to stop for a policeman when going about my lawful business. A right which has already been eroded quite far enough. Quite aside from it changing the fundamentals of what it is to be a citizen, it's just another avenue to allow racists to be racist. Because you can have an educated guess at what colour skin the people stopped for "Papieren bitte" will have ?

Just remember, there are already politicians out there who have voted on legislation that makes people arrested,. but not charged "uncaught criminals", rather than the previously less sinister "innocent".

The HO is unable to operate within the law as it is, who would trust them with ID cards? This regime's predeliction for corruption could make them a nice little earner form some though.

There are a few phrases which I consider to be a Godwin equivalent argument ender. I can't think of them all now, but a choice few are

"DNA" - when discussing wrongful conviction (usually wrt capital punishment)

"Taking back control"

"Bent bananas"

"If you have noting to hide, you have nothing to fear" ....

Well you have a choice. Be happy with as many people as want to be there coming into Britain, or find a way of turfing them out. Stop and ask (for ID) is a lot less intrusive to the law abiding public than having to find ways of proving who you are. As said it is not a complete solution but it would be a start.
I hadn't realised quite how small Gibraltar is, about 5Km or so long.
The idea of having to drive on Winston Churchill road going across the runway is quite novel. Only about 35,000 people.

Admittedly Jean Charles de Menezes had nothing to hide, and now has nothing to fear. That said, I'm not sure that's what was meant.

Incidentally, did anyone catch the news that a British soldier stands to be charged over a 1988 shooting at a border in NI ? I guess that poor unarmed civilian had nothing to hide either ? Just rotten luck the soldiers finger slipped on a wet trigger eh ? I mean, could happen to anyone.

So much of what the DUP/kip gov is trying to force through is modelled on apartheid, and pass laws and cards were key.
In a civilised north European country with human rights legislation and a functioning accountable democratic government, I would consider the necessity for ID cards.
Under this crew; no chance.

Agree woman

@Mother
To an extent I agree but for the majority of places local police would be used to seeing the usual residents. In the same way that a 'local bobby' in the past would have a fair idea of where any trouble would be coming from. See also policing cuts.
Trusting the HO with ID cards, well passports and driving licenses etc are handled now (not both by the HO). It is not a rule that they HAVE to mess it up.

I can't see why the Tories are afraid of a Corbyn government. He's not exactly provided any opposition has he?

If the UK is not already a 'police state' through CCTV usage it soon will be.

Fines for dropping 'litter', IIRC a guy dropped part of a pasty and was fined for littering.

The biggest issue for me with ID cards here was always that the proposed ones were always more than an ID card and were going to be bloody expensive. If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear - except maybe having to starve to pay for them.

54321go do you you actually believe that only autocracies have ID cards?

Also, what exactly is meant by "more than an ID card?" The whole point of passports is that they are more than name, DOB, photo. That's why they're the gold standard - most employers require people to show their passports before they are allowed to start working in the UK. (Or if you're foreign, you have to show your shiny new £400 biometric ID card, because now your old passport with your visa in it isn't good enough.)

pineapple a passport is more than something that identifies you as it infers you the right to travel under the protection of the state issued for a start. Same with driving licenses, they work as ID but its not their purpose. The ID card schemes that have been promoted here are not just about having cards that ID people, otherwise they'd have been an easy and cheap roll out.

The whole point of passports is that they are more than name, DOB, photo.

wrt the ID cards, the whole point of passports is they are a choice for the citizen.

Pointing to apples, saying "they're like oranges" doesn't help with scurvy.

I was meaning an ID card would have a photo, address and sufficient data on it to identify you such as NI number a healthcare number or whatever. A chip in it perhaps to make it machine readable like a credit card. It's function is to quickly rule out 99 percent of 'suspicious' activities in as unobtrusive way as possible.
There will always be fraud and inappropriate use of information but to reduce that to a tiny fraction would be a start.
Alternatively what other suggestions does anyone have since you don't want to be identified yet you want those not entitled to be in the UK to be removed?

I was meaning an ID card would have a photo, address

Who pays when the address changes ?

Passports are not a choice if you travel out of your country you have to have one and when the UK leaves all will have to get one when traveling out of the UK although currently other forms of ID are (at least theoretically) possible.

Who pays for changes? Same as with a driving license. If you are changing address £10 or so is nothing compared to a house move.

Passports are not a choice if you travel out of your country you have to have one

Oh, and travelling out of the country isn't a choice ? Sorry l didn't realise.

When were you forced to leave the country ?

A choice is a choice is a choice. No one has to leave the country. They might want to, but that's a different dynamic. If you want, you pay.

I am talking about compulsion - and no one is compelled to have a passport. Therefore any comparison with an enforced, compulsory ID card doesn't really work. To the extent that I'm surprised people keep trying to bring it up.

There's something slightly offish about people dismissing the costs of passports as "oh well, just the price of being middle class" when some people - on these very forums - are choosing between nappies and sanitary towels.