The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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The Brexit thread.

By Brexiters, for Brexiters.

Remainers welcome, but gobshites & goadyfuckers are encouraged to take their business elsewhere.

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Unfortunately the EU were unequivocal in this. They were not prepared to even begin talks until TM et al had capitulated on that ridiculous demand.

So who do you blame ? Or are you now saying that the EU had some sort of whip hand going into Brexit. Which (my memory is fuzzy here) is almost (but not quite) the exact opposite of what we were told the position was before the referendum ?

We're back to Shroedingers Brexit. On the one hand, the mighty UK bestriding the world like a colossus, putting fear into the heart of Europe. But - at the same time - poor, little hard done by UK that can't even assert itself in talks about talks ????????

Anyway, DD, LF and BJ were incredibly upbeat about the phased negotiations, and had no issues with them whatsoever. If anyone was disappointed about it, it wasn't mentioned at the time.

In their hubris & petulance, the UK Government spectacularly failed to recognise the huge significance & difficulties inherent in Ireland & NI & the delicate & precarious nature of it.
They arrogantly tried to use it as a negotiating tactic.

Fixed that for you.

In their hubris & petulance, the EU spectacularly failed to recognise the huge significance & difficulties inherent in Ireland & NI & the delicate & precarious nature of it.

Sorry, I call bollocks.

It was a clear problem before the referendum. Don't blame the EU for your lack of comprehension or attention.

The Remain campaign mentioned it too.

"In their hubris & petulance, the EU spectacularly failed to recognise the huge significance & difficulties inherent in Ireland & NI & the delicate & precarious nature of it."

How is making sure that the border issue is resolved as a priority failing to "recognise the huge significance & difficulties"! It's exactly the oppposite!

*Meanwhile on the other hand the UK folk (including a significant number in NI) voted to leave the Eu without considering the consequences for NI.

And the EU are worse?*

Well, yes.

Being as how they're supposed to be the professionals and all - responsible for the running of a huge institution.

Sadly Faith we are where we are, so your view regarding the border issue "there is no way to square it other than the SM/CU solution" is a welcome statement of a shared conclusion also voiced by many on this and other EU/Irish Border threads. Let us hope that it is also a shared if not stated conclusion currently being put forward by our Government.

Don't blame the EU for your lack of comprehension or attention.

It's like conversing with a child.
Say anything against the sainted EU & get a coordinated response:

'Don't say bad things about my mummy, you big meanie'.

How is making sure that the border issue is resolved as a priority failing to "recognise the huge significance & difficulties"! It's exactly the oppposite!

So tell me how on earth the border issue can be resolved before having even a loose idea of the shape of the future relationship.

This is why trade negotiations etc should have been occurring in parallel from the beginning - the EU dropped a bollock in this respect imo, in their efforts to project superiority.

fath I don't understand this argument at all.

What miraculous solution would there have been if we were negiotiating trade agreements in parallel?

The fact is, outside of SM/CU trade cannot be frictionless, thus a border is required.

Your argument is more just kicking the can down the road which is precisely why the EU wanted it resolving first.

Say anything against the sainted EU & get a coordinated response

Not really. I just can't see how it's the EUs fault that the UK is making such a fist of Brexit. It's not like they have whipped back a curtain to reveal loads of things that weren't known about and warned about before the referendum.

We return to the base fact that a lot of people who voted to Leave simply had no idea, no interest, and no comprehension of how the EU worked, what it did, and how if affected them.

your view regarding the border issue "there is no way to square it other than the SM/CU solution" is a welcome statement of a shared conclusion also voiced by many on this and other EU/Irish Border threads. Let us hope that it is also a shared if not stated conclusion currently being put forward by our Government.

Quelle surprise!

Yet another of my posts selectively quoted & twisted to make an entirely false pronouncement on my supposed 'conclusions'.

This is the full post, where you will see that I am not endorsing or supporting the SM/CU & am definitely not suggesting that it is the only solution.
I did say that it was the only way to square it if future trade & future relationship is not settled on first, which is not what you inferred:

As I've maintained since the beginning, I don't think a solution can be found unless future trade & future relationship is shaped alongside.

Prior to these issues being settled ^there is no way to square it other than the SM/CU solution.

This is why trade negotiations etc should have been occurring in parallel from the beginning - the EU dropped a bollock in this respect imo, in their efforts to project superiority.^

I just can't see how it's the EUs fault that the UK is making such a fist of Brexit

Nowhere have I stated this.

It would be grand if the hit squad could actually read posts and make any responses based on words actually written, rather than making shit up or twisting words to suit an agenda.

Faith There's a wealth of discussion and critical analyses on this, particularly wrt the European Neighbourhood Policy & enlargement.

There's no easy one-stop-shop to link you to, I'm afraid I'll fall back to 'google it'.

Protectionism, enlargement, constructivism - subtle influence via 'soft power' rather than the in-your-face overtness of what is typically seen in post modern and/or capitalist imperialism.

I was just looking for your version, not a google link. So all international organisations are dodgy, then. Constructivism. Ironically it was the UK which hoped a wider membership would mean a less deep one and pushed for this. However, it was a wish by the other member states to join.

A very good example is what happened to Ireland. Ireland has experienced 'not benign.' EU membership is what transformed what had been an exploited and underdeveloped country. It helped build up the country and give people choices.

Protectionism. Well, it is advocated that the UK unilaterally drop it's tariffs to zero. Let it all in. What about the effect on British businesses Maybe don't even test it. And what harm can lead in childrens' toys do? Is there anywhere that doesn't have some sort of protectionism. I wouldn't want to live there.

No organisation is perfect. But some are better than others.

Nowhere have I stated this.

Yes you have.

Nowhere have I stated this.*

Yes you have.*

I cannot find it.

I am 100% sure I have never said:

it's the EUs fault that the UK is making such a fist of Brexit

Happy to be corrected though as ever.

faith, could you answer my question about how you think negiotiatiing a trade deal in parallel would have helped at all?

As far as I can see it's just back to cake and eat it again?

Google it.

This is why trade negotiations etc should have been occurring in parallel from the beginning - the EU dropped a bollock in this respect imo, in their efforts to project superiority

No they didn't. The UK did by rushing to agree without thinking it through (which appears to be a trademark of Brexiteers).

The EU has a highly experienced team of negotiators who have centuries of accumulated experience. Their suggestion (and the UK was quite free to reject it, and put forward another way) was that the tricky bits which they didn't trust the UK on would be agreed before trade and relationship.

In hindsight, such a suggestion (which the UK agreed to, it didn't have to, and could have countered with a different proposal) seems prescient, as DDs "fingers crossed, smirk, nudge wink" about ignoring any undertakings given last year shows.

I appreciate that you may have handled things in a different way. But the time to have that discussion was before the UK agreed to the EU suggested timetable, and via your member of parliament.

Ultimately, it matters not a jot what Leavers, Brexiteers, Remainers and Traitors think. The rest of the world will just see a UK which - having agreed to one thing with no coercion or duress - now finds itself wishing it hadn't. Hardly gives Liam Fox the upper hand in Washington does it ?

Cailleach, and there lies the difference in our informed & researched opinions & views regarding the EU which led us to vote in opposite ways.

That, in essence, is democracy.

May stymied the border when she said the UK would be out of the customs union and the single market in the Lancaster House speech. It doesn’t matter what trade agreement is drawn up, or what smart technology is used, with no CU/SM there has to be a border with checks.

I did read your post and I started mine with "we are where we are" because your 'if' trade talks had taken place alongside or indeed ahead of the 3 matters included in the Dec 2017 agreement to proceed didn't, and now can't (because that was in the past), take place. As for trade talks alongside reaching the withdrawal treaty agreement, well again, our Govt have already agreed that trade comes afterwards.

So, we are where we are, with no 'if only' left. So is the SM/CU now the only solution to the Irish border issue?

I hoping the answer is more substantial than that cardinal

I genuinely don't follow the logic though.

It's like faith (and I've heard others say the same) believes there would have been a whole different set of circumstances if we'd negiotated trade in parallel.

The facts are that no hard border and no SM/CU are incompatible.

That's not going to change.

*faith, could you answer my question about how you think negiotiatiing a trade deal in parallel would have helped at all?

As far as I can see it's just back to cake and eat it again?*

I did answer it: without knowing what the future relationship will encompass, there is no way of figuring out the specific implications for Ireland, NI & the border.

But we are where we are openly negotiated/agreed by our Govt. So the ony way to resolve the Irish border, based on your own conclusion Faith is continuing with the SM/CU.