The Brexit Arms

[BrexitArmsLandlady]

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This may be the last Brexit Arms thread that I will host.

It was intended to be a non-partisan and relatively light hearted thread for posters on both sides of the divide, but unfortunately this seems to have proved impossible so far.

It is not supposed to be a place for the disgruntled Remainer to use as an outlet to abuse and kick out at their perceived enemy.

I will give it one last go in the hope that things will change.

So.... onwards to Brexit....

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I thought I'd post that excerpt to refuel the fact fire ... surprised no Brexiteer did

user
I have spent 3 days looking into EFTA and asking (daft) questions on here about it, thought it was a way forward.
You've clearly done more homework that the Three Brexiteers though

frumpety
Those five tests are completely unachievable aren't they ? Perfect if you don't want to do something , set up a list of tests you know cannot be achieved ?
Indeed because they fail the Realisable, Understandable, Measurable test that we are getting user to apply to things

I don't see how compromise is achievable or desirable, apart from, to (eg) Faith, as a first step to complete separation. Remainers could never truly accept a compromise as it would inevitably be far inferior to full EU membership and would be damaging to the UK. Even I, as an avid remainer, realise that any potential benefit of leaving the EU cannot be realised by a half-way house. So I think it must be all the way in or all the way out. I favour in and imagine if we end up out we will gradually creep back in.

Or am I being naive?

Glad it’s not just me that instantly thinks of Finbar Saunders whenever I see “deep and special”.

But not one remainer has suggested an acceptable compromise to their side.

Leaving the EU is not what Remainers voted for. Anything that involves leaving (whether that is EEA/ EFTA, Canada/Japan style FTA, or something else) involves a huge amount of compromise.

Remainers did not set out the red lines that has backed the UK into a corner.

Remainers could never truly accept a compromise

Why do you think that? As a Briton in Europe, Remain is obviously my preference but if a compromise Brexit which retained SM membership was on offer then of course I would prefer that over a hard brexit, or even over the endless half-in-half-out transition which is where we may be heading.

misti the problem is any compromise on the side of Leavers will enivtably led to Remainers asking what was the fucking point of all this.

There is no halfway house here. The cake and eat it option Leavers wanted, and still want, can't happen.

We have to stay in some kind of SM/CU so why are we going through all this?

Leaving the EU is not what Remainers voted for. Anything that involves leaving (whether that is EEA/ EFTA, Canada/Japan style FTA, or something else) involves a huge amount of compromise.

I've said that to user before agnes but he doesn't seem to get the concept that anything is a compromise for Remainers, even BINO.

Maybe I worded it badly. I could not accept a compromise. Better?

"Or am I being naive?"

Not sure. Joseph Goebbels killed his whole family, including 6 children, when the truth stared him in the face. Defiant to the death. Hope our Brexit Nationalists will prove less implacable.

I'm really hoping there will be some sensible discussions on here after TM's speech.

It has been billed as providing clarity on our exit strategy but appears to be going to do nothing of the sort.

If that is the case then surely Leavers have got to start asking questions.

Are you honestly going to be happy with yet more waffle?

Especially if she does go down the 'we won't get everything we want' route without providing detail on what that means.

To me that's laying the ground for her u-turn on SM/CU.

Lol @frumpety & @MichaelBendfaster 😂

I was 'piped up the aisle' when I got married 😳

Plus side bear,
I didn't annoy completely with my post
Misti,
I fear there is no way to satisfy anyone.
DG,
That's where my comment from Kier Stramer and NI came from and there is link to Laura Kuesssberg's blog from there too.
I starting to think Theresa May's government is trying to soften us all into a Bespoke EFTA arrangement. So they can say we left, Brexitter covered, but remain in parts of SM/CU to deal with Ireland and remain campaign side

So a right royal compromise, where no side gets what it totally wants, but they can claim we did our best.
Is that how Politian's work best, promise the earth, deliver the bare minimum Or am I just a old cynical voter, who has little respect left for Politians from all sides, with a few honourable exceptions.

user
Is that how Politian's work best, promise the earth, deliver the bare minimum
Yup. In a nutshell.
But in this Brexit debacle, even the bare minimum will do so much harm to the economy as I think we are helping you to realise that it has to be unravelled somehow.

I starting to think Theresa May's government is trying to soften us all into a Bespoke EFTA arrangement. So they can say we left, Brexitter covered, but remain in parts of SM/CU to deal with Ireland and remain campaign side

Yay, finally, one Leaver who didn't actually vote Leave down, 17m to go!

We have to stay in some kind of SM/CU so why are we going through all this?

But if that was your attitude, no political decision would get made, ever. Political decisions are almost invariably a compromise between the best solution, and what is politically achievable. Remainers of all people should understand this because it is very much how the EU itself works.

There are people who see a genuine advantage to a Norway type Brexit (the sovereignty crowd - a small but sincere group), and many other people who voted leave and who aren't little England xenophobes could probably get behind it. Most remainers would by definition prefer to remain, but if push comes to shove they would mostly prefer a soft Brexit to the triumph of disaster capitalism.

I was 'piped up the aisle' when I got married

Matron

Presumably, surfer you considered (amongst other things) things like trade, the border, EU citizens living in the UK, Uk citizens living in the EU when you voted?

Someone asked me why I didn’t consider these things when I voted leave.

Trade - What about it? Not my job or responsibility to sort out a trade agreement.
It’s not yours either so stop stressing.
We will survive outside of the EU, I know you think that’s impossible, but unless you’re running an import / export business I don’t know why you’re crying over trade deals.

The border didn’t consider it in the slightest, I doubt you did either.

EU citizens - Nope. Because I’m not one.

Uk citizens living in the EU - As above.

Sorry I think I am naïve,
Look we rightly or wrong where ask to vote Yes or no to remaining in EU UK vote NO
I thought all UK wants least damage as possible, especially remainers.
You asked me to think of a way to improve current situation, I did say no, go away not fair, I used my poor skills to research EFTA and asked cleverer people you lot questions.
It's a compromise as Misti says, as that's all we will get.
For the first time today I have read/heard comments that government understands it is impossible to get everything Brexitters want.
surely that's a start
sadly life is a compromise, or mine as been up to now

Not my job or responsibility to sort out a trade agreement. but it was your (and all our) responsibility to vote with trade for our country in mind.

unless you’re running an import / export business I don’t know why you’re crying over trade deals.
I'm not sure anyone's 'crying', but, short answer, people are concerned because Brexit in any form will make the UK less well-off. Which will affect us all. Well, apart from the super-rich and independently wealthy.

The border didn’t consider it in the slightest, I doubt you did either.
I did, as it happens. I'm old enough to remember the Troubles. It seemed a fairly fundamental thing to think about.

EU citizens - Nope. Because I’m not one. Distasteful as you may find it to consider, you are, for now at least.

Uk citizens living in the EU - As above
This and the point above – I live in the UK too, but I know and have known British people who live(d) in other EU countries; and citizens of other EU countries who live(d) here. Plus of course there are all the people in these categories who I may not know personally, but who must also figure in one's considerations when making a decision as momentous as this one.

Unless one is a self-serving cunt, of course.

It's a compromise as Misti says, as that's all we will get.

It's the only possible solution right now though we may still not get it.

The alternative is a GE which may or may not lead to the election of a party with a sane Brexit policy but would presumably lead to A50 being either extended or retracted.

But if that was your attitude, no political decision would get made, ever.

I disagree misti. In most normal circumstances there can be an element of compromise so change is perfectly possible.

That's not the case with Brexit.

The only thing TM has been resolute on is no hard border in NI. The language you'd when discussing this is explicit and unambiguous.

This is not compatible with leaving SM/CU and the language around this is much more woolly; 'best possible deal' etc

Remaining in SM / CU is not what most Leavers want because we'd have to pay through the nose for it and we'd still have to abide by the rules.

There's no halfway house though, we can't just have a 'bit of a border' or some other compromise. It's in or out.

EU citizens - Nope. Because I’m not one.

(chorus)

Oh yes you are. By dint of being a citizen of a member state of the the EU, you have additional rights available to you. If you don't like it, take it up with all the countries in the world that do recognise it - not me.

Start with the United States of America. They speak a sort of English, and are quite easy to approach.

There's no point in discussing the fact surfer didn't think about any of the consequences of Brexit before she voted; she takes an odd pride in her ignorance about it.

Meanwhile I see the US is to slap a 25% tariff on imported steel. As expected, the EU is already gearing up to fight Europes corner (as it has done previously with success).

In the meantime, I'm curious how this helps the UK steel industry, which is one of the UKs post-Brexit saviours ?

I know, bear. It's a sort of morbid impulse that makes me respond. I can't really explain it.