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Brexit
Original poster

The Leavers Lagoon - for people positive about our future outside of the EU.

999 replies

surferjet · 12/02/2018 08:35

Good morning Smile

Voting to leave the European Union was a monumental decision, and one that will change the direction of our Country for decades to come.
I see that as an exciting opportunity & something to be welcomed & celebrated.

So, if you see solutions instead of problems, if you see a better future for the citizens of U.K., free from the constraints of an organisation we had no control over, then this place is for you.
Of course not everything is going to run smoothly, maybe not for years, because leaving a union drowning in red tape was never going to be easy, but we are forward thinking progressive people who know the future doesn’t just mean next week.
So, here’s to our new future,
To the future of the U.K. Wine
The countdown begins.........

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 16/02/2018 16:42

So sadly they will remain angry in years to come

they were angry before you think they'd be used to it.

remainers on the other hand weren't (angry).

If the nations anger level is the criteria for Brexit, then staying in is the option which leaves the least number of people angry.

SusanWalker · 16/02/2018 16:46

Talking of booze cruisers will that still be a thing if we leave customs union and single market or will tariffs apply? Will we be back to duty free allowance only? If so that will need even more customs checks.

TalkinPeace · 16/02/2018 17:19

Will we be back to duty free allowance only? If so that will need even more customs checks.
Yup
and all the small business who currently pop across to Spain / Italy / France / Poland to buy stuff that they sell in their restaurants / shops / stalls
will suddenly have to go through customs declarations and tariffs and import VAT

When I worked in Dover docks, booze smuggling was utterly rife

  • drivers used to drop off their stuff in the office and then we used to take it out the staff gate and meet them in town.

Then again the biggest drug dealer in Dover was a Customs Officer
there was a telly programme about Customs and Liverpool police spotted him and came calling : you could not make it up

The whole idea of a virtual border is just complete la la land
and contrary to taking back control

DGRossetti · 16/02/2018 17:23

Talking of booze cruisers will that still be a thing if we leave customs union and single market or will tariffs apply? Will we be back to duty free allowance only? If so that will need even more customs checks.

Without a deal, I guess we'll be back to tariffs. I have no idea how duty free works, but from memory, it's not a generous as buying in the EU (duty paid) and returning to the UK as we do now.

Another real shock for people under 60, who may never have travelled to Europe pre-1973.

Palermonese · 16/02/2018 17:39

Drifting slightly OT, but I received my Italian voting cards today.

Isn't it funny, growing up I was never particularly bothered about my half Sicilian heritage. Now I have become fiercely semi-patriotic, with the other half being British ...

Anyway, I suspect that Berlusconi & co. might not get my vote, but it will be interesting to see who will ... no idea yet, but I will vote.

TalkinPeace · 16/02/2018 18:03

There were limits on the amount that could be brought in until the early 90's (after Maastricht brought in the 4 freedoms)
hence why there was all the smuggling

DGRossetti · 16/02/2018 18:10

There were limits on the amount that could be brought in until the early 90's

There were also "limits" after that, as C&E (late HMRC) decided (illegally,. by the way) that the treaties were advisory. If I recall correctly the Commission had to rebuke the UK and remind it of the law.

TalkinPeace · 16/02/2018 18:17

DGRosetti
Oh yes. I remember that stage.
I was working in the Wine trade by then and the fun and games we had getting small batch shipments through was interesting

When I was in Kent there was definitely Duty Free on the ferries (I worked for P&O for a very short while)

TalkinPeace · 16/02/2018 19:35

I just reread @surferjet OP
So, if you see solutions instead of problems, if you see a better future for the citizens of U.K., free from the constraints of an organisation we had no control over, then this place is for you.

And its a fair point ...
what is the solution to Kent ?
what is the solution to NHS staffing?
what is the solution to agriculture / food industry staffing ?
The referendum was a while back - you must be clear on exactly what you want by now. .......

As for
the constraints of an organisation we had no control over
How often do you take part in UK Government consultations?
How often do you write to ministers?
How often do you write to senior civil servants?
I do so on a weekly basis and its effing frustrating as they live in a total bubble and evidence based decision making is not on their radar.

How will you cope when you realise that the problem is Whitehall (440,000 unelected bureaucrats) rather than Brussels (33000 unelected bureaucrats) ?

SusanWalker · 16/02/2018 20:15

I think I remember booze cruising becoming a thing and having to prove it was for personal consumption. I think the duty free wasn't a very big allowance at all. But like you say there will just be lots more smuggling if tariffs go up.

I used to work in the civil service and several departments shared our building. We used to sit in the smoking room with the customs and excise guys. Half the room would be smoking knock off baccy.

Ifailed · 17/02/2018 07:04

duty-free allowance: 16 litres of beer, 4 litres wine, 1 litre spirits. 200 fags or 250g tobacco. Other goods up to £390.

Peregrina · 17/02/2018 08:19

One partial solution to NHS staffing would be to increase the number of places available at medical schools. There appears to be no shortage of well qualified candidates, so supply is not a problem. What would be a problem is that it can't be done in a couple of years - it would need to be something like a 10 year project before the increased numbers started coming through as new graduates. Does anyone see a plan for this?

frumpety · 17/02/2018 08:29

Peregrina we don't need plans apparently Wink

MedSchoolRat · 17/02/2018 08:58

One partial solution to NHS staffing would be to increase the number of places available at medical schools. ...Does anyone see a plan for this?

yes there is a govt plan for this. The kids being interviewed now are the first affected yr. Supposed to make the UK self-sufficient in producing doctors. I bet UK still won't be self-sufficient, though, between technological advances & ageing population.

Mistigri · 17/02/2018 08:59

One partial solution to NHS staffing would be to increase the number of places available at medical schools. There appears to be no shortage of well qualified candidates, so supply is not a problem. What would be a problem is that it can't be done in a couple of years - it would need to be something like a 10 year project before the increased numbers started coming through as new graduates. Does anyone see a plan for this?

It's not as simple as that, though. To train doctors, you need senior doctors to train and supervise them. Yes, you could increase candidates at the front end - get them through the academic part of a medical degree. But those trainee doctors then have to be placed in a hospital, initially under the tight supervision of a senior doctor. And in an understaffed health service, that creates a serious bottleneck, assuming you want doctors to be trained properly and safely.

MedSchoolRat · 17/02/2018 09:00

I can't find news about corresponding rise in nursing, midwifery, physiotherapy (etc.) training spaces. Maybe still to come heavily from abroad.

Peregrina · 17/02/2018 09:05

OK, I had forgotten the plan to create some more places. What I really meant was that they need something like a doubling of places - to replace those citizens from elsewhere EU/non EU who are now choosing to go elsewhere, and to replace those retiring. As Mistigri says, it can't be done easily.

frumpety · 17/02/2018 09:09

However, the new medical school places will also mean that UK students will be required to work in the NHS for four years after graduating before they can move overseas. If you do not, you may face penalties which could include repaying the cost of your training. This currently stands at around £220,000 – not a nice prospect!

In the UK it costs around £70,000 to train a nurse from scratch, £479,000 for a general practitioner, and £725,000 to train a hospital consultant. It is therefore not surprising that the UK health economy makes a considerable saving in recruiting foreign staff that are already trained.23 Jun 2015.

Interesting .

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 17/02/2018 09:43

Maybe still to come heavily from abroad

My 'in the know' hospital friend says they are recruiting massively abroad

It will be three years before uk trained nurses come through and she says it will be incredibly difficult until then

They will also be taking nurses who are unable to pass the english speaking test...which is ironic

WifeofDarth · 17/02/2018 10:06

misti to train doctors you need senior doctors....
Same problem in teaching at the moment . Difficult to get placements for students as teacher turnover means fewer staff with the experience to mentor. And those with the experience less able to take on students due to current high workload.

frumpety · 17/02/2018 10:17

Data from more than 30 medical schools, released under freedom of information laws, reveals that nearly 1,200 British students, most with top grades at A-level, left with no qualification. Others changed course or were awarded a BSc.

Attrition rates in nurse training are about 20% I believe .

Corcory · 17/02/2018 11:36

frumpety - I think the idea that you have to stay working for the NHS for at least 4 years after qualifying is a good one.

TheyBuiltThePyramids · 17/02/2018 13:34

Someone mentioned above about brexiteers thinking global trade is the way of the future and not being so reliant on the EU. However, we already trade globally, it's just as an EU country with the relevant rules and tariffs etc. It's not like we are going to be magic up new markets. We MAY be able to offer better trading terms for some items, but I expect these will come with conditions.

Ifailed · 17/02/2018 14:04

The Global trade thing is particularity annoying. Leave an 'undemocratic' trading block where as one of the larger members we have clear influence, to join the WTO and be in complete thrall to the likes of China and USA, to whom we are a small archipelago of the N European coast that used to be interesting due to our influence in the EU!
But then the smug leavers will start bleating on about how we are world-beaters and everyone is just queuing up to trade with us, because they read it in the Daily Mail.

LondonMum8 · 17/02/2018 14:15

Truly infuriating @Ifailed. I guess, as everything about Brexit campaign, this has been designed as a two-pronged manipulative tactic: 1) appeal to some residual imperial sentiments 2) potentially evoke a positive sentiment in the Commonwealth vote (surely anything global must be better than European). The fact that this kind of low tactics actually works is quite depressing and another insult to British democracy.