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Brexit
Original poster

Can anyone defend today's shambolic events?

241 replies

Bearbehind · 04/12/2017 19:47

So it seems TM decided to ignore the fact the DUP has said all along they wouldn't support different rules for NI and tell the EU that that was how we are planning to resolve the border issue.

Then Arlene points out that they weren't bluffing and will not support it so TM has to back track.

It's a fucking joke.

TM and her government continue to think everyone else will just back down if they plough on with their arrogant plans.

When are they going to get real?

Seriously, is there any defence for this staggering display of incomptentence?

OP posts:
purits · 05/12/2017 11:42

I don't see why the border is a problem. The EU manages to have borders elsewhere with non-EU countries without great mishap.
They need to get past history, recognise that peace has been beneficial to all and move forward.

AgnesSkinner · 05/12/2017 11:44

The EU manages to have borders elsewhere with non-EU countries without great mishap

But they are still hard borders and subject to customs checks. Can you not see how that is incompatible with the GFA?

Motheroffourdragons · 05/12/2017 11:45

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Peregrina · 05/12/2017 11:52

Keep voting until the electorate give the 'correct' answer.
You had your chance.
You had your chance with the 1975 Referendum. Why wasn't that good enough?

You don't agree with General Elections then? We should just stick with the Government voted in in, well, which year? During the early part of the War, General Elections were suspended, so there is precedent. It was only when the War was nearing its conclusion that a GE was called.

purits · 05/12/2017 11:52

The four freedoms are the raison d'être of the EU, and are not negotiable.

And that's why we want out. The EC should have stuck to being a free trade area.

RhiannonOHara · 05/12/2017 11:53

Maybe give Brexiteers blue passports, take away their freedom of movement and just leave the rest of us out of it.

My DP came up with a sort of version of this last night.

We quietly cancel the whole fandango. Those who wanted to leave get a special badge/T-shirt/dog tag/tattoo that says 'Not under ECJ jurisdiction' and, on the back, 'SOVEREIGNTY!'

Life, of course, in all meaningful ways carries on just as before but presumably the sovereignty crowd get to feel like they've Got Their Country Back.

Personally I'm rewatching Passport to Pimlico, keeping a keen eye on Sadiq Khan and sounding out my neighbours for their thoughts on an independent city state of London, which I've wanted for years anyway.

RhiannonOHara · 05/12/2017 11:55

purits, if we lose FOM we lose people who currently pick our crops (there has been a warning about food rotting in the fields), build our houses (the building trade is already suffering), and let's not forget the 90% was it? drop in EU people coming to work in the NHS, famous as it is for being overstaffed and understretched.

Would that be good for the UK?

purits · 05/12/2017 11:55

You had your chance with the 1975 Referendum. Why wasn't that good enough?

I was too young to vote. Besides that wasn't the EU.
I didn't have a chance to vote on Maastricht, the politicians didn't allow it.

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2017 11:56

"Keep voting until the electorate give the 'correct' answer."

Still waiting on any truthful example on where this has really happened, purits. We know a potential Ireland answer is a lie.

Ifailed · 05/12/2017 11:57

So, Purits , what is your answer to the border issue with the EU in Ireland?

Peregrina · 05/12/2017 12:01

I note you duck the GE question purits. We accept the fact that time moves on and that General Elections are required, with exceptions for War Time.

The Leavers have been in charge of the Brexit negotiations and so far, they have made a mess of it, or done nothing of substance. At what stage does their mandate cease? Or do we bind future generations in perpetuity?

purits · 05/12/2017 12:02

Wow Rhiannon. You think the main benefit of the EU is exploiting cheap foreign labour do you? And you Remainers have the cheek to call us the xenophobes.

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2017 12:02

All the 18 year olds were too young to vote last year, too. They now know that the vision promoted by Brexiteers was incompatible with reality. They should be able to vote on what will affect their lives. Especially those who will be most affected in NI. Maybe they should get to vote on whether they want 'alignment' or 'divergence'. Or will the politicians not allow that?

sinceyouask · 05/12/2017 12:06

Here's a question for the Remainers: having seen how the EU have been negotiating with us over the last few months, do you really believe that they are our 'friends'?

Most definitely. The more I see of the negotiations, the sadder I am that we are leaving. Far better the EU in control, than people such as the Tories and DUP, and those supporters of Brexit who have such a tenuous grasp of what the EU is and does that they think that by not rolling over and saying 'whatever you want' the EU is being unfriendly. I look at the way Britain has been handling these negotiations and I know the government and its supporters are not my friends.

RhiannonOHara · 05/12/2017 12:09

You think the main benefit of the EU is exploiting cheap foreign labour do you?

Grin

That was predictable, wasn't it?

Someone has to do agricultural and building labour (not to mention high-skilled medical work and the high-skilled areas of building, but you fail to address that part).

I think everyone should be paid fairly and no one exploited. But companies paying minimum wage or less, and providing bad working conditions, are not the EU's problem or caused by our membership.

CheeriosEverywhere · 05/12/2017 12:11

I don't see why the border is a problem

This is the issue, isn't it? Brexiteers simply can't see the problem. They don't understand the history or the politics or the people or even the geography, so their response is simply "it doesn't matter".

But it does matter. You can't get a trade deal until you understand that it matters and deal with it. You can't leave until you do it.

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2017 12:12

Looks like the crooked bare faced lie of the EU just making people vote repeatedly on exactly the same thing is being left out there without any substantiation.

Like Penny Mordaunt, Farage, et al. It is wonderful to have crooked liars inc and their dark masters running the country.

I'm really sick of crooked liars. Reached peak.

Cailleach1 · 05/12/2017 12:15

"You can't leave until you do it"

The UK can leave. The clock will time out if there is a no deal scenario. It will be cliff edge.

IsaSchmisa · 05/12/2017 12:15

They need to get past history, recognise that peace has been beneficial to all and move forward.

Who's they?

Peregrina · 05/12/2017 12:17

I think everyone should be paid fairly and no one exploited. But companies paying minimum wage or less, and providing bad working conditions, are not the EU's problem or caused by our membership.

Besides which, we have an aging workforce, who are physically incapable of doing many of the jobs. It's also been deliberate policy to import NHS staff instead of bothering to train our own. It's one area too, where there is no shortage of people aspiring to go into medicine, nursing and midwifery.

Peregrina · 05/12/2017 12:22

The Good Friday Agreement just dropped out of the sky, did it purits? Were you too young to know about The Troubles, and the shear hard graft that people put into making the GFA come about? Have you stopped to think why it's called the GFA, which isn't it's official name. It's because people were working into the small hours of Good Friday, to get the agreement, when the rest of us were enjoying a Bank Holiday and stuffing our faces with hot cross buns.

CheeriosEverywhere · 05/12/2017 12:26

The UK can leave. The clock will time out if there is a no deal scenario. It will be cliff edge

Well, have you left if you still have an open border with the EU and no plan in place for what happens next? I would say you haven't actually left at all.

Corcory · 05/12/2017 12:50

Mother - loads of countries outside the EU have free trade deals with the EU. These do not necessitate the FOM or any other conditions but trade as far as I know. Why would they not want a decent deal with us, one of their largest trading partners?
If we had been able to negotiate our trade deal at the same time as negotiating the Irish border question this would have been much simpler. It's like putting the cart before the horse.
The Ukraine have a type of customs deal with the EU that we may be able to use but I don't know any detail so can't comment further.

Peregrina · 05/12/2017 12:51

Corcory, it's May who has ruled out customs deals, so whether this, that or the other country has one is a bit of an irrelevance.

CheeriosEverywhere · 05/12/2017 13:14

If we had been able to negotiate our trade deal at the same time as negotiating the Irish border question this would have been much simpler. It's like putting the cart before the horse

You can't have a trade deal with people when you haven't sorted your border with those people. This could not be more basic.

The Ukraine have a type of customs deal with the EU that we may be able to use but I don't know any detail so can't comment further

The deal with Ukraine is entirely predicated on them getting inline with the EU. converging, NOT divorcing from it.And it comes after 20 years of the parties trying to get closer, with a view to Ukraine eventually joining the EU.

It is literally the exact opposite of the situation with the UK.