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Brexit

Westministenders: The Art of the Deal

989 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2017 13:11

Well Trump seems to have put his foot in it.

Not that this should come as a surprise. For all the talk of closer ties with the US that was never going to happen. All that was need was for Trump to over step once too many.

By chance (?) Barnier also raised questions about our commitment to working with the EU on security.

Its almost as if we are being asked to choose whom we look to for security.

Meanwhile it sounds like the divorce bill is sorted - though this may not be as settled as that, if it comes with conditions. The deal might also be backtracked on, seeing as that appears to be the done thing presently.

Talks on Ireland are stalemated with Ireland threating to veto. No sign of a breakthrough here yet.

Talks on EU citz rights are reportedly going backwards (again) rather than going forward.

All of this is theatre for a British audience though, with the UK agreeing to everything. Because they gave again their cards when a50 was triggered.

The crunch is coming on whether we move to stage two before Christmas. We have no time to lose.

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mumisnotmyname · 04/12/2017 13:45

Isa got in before me, don't lump the north together it is highly divided.
I couldn't see any sensible solution to NI and if reports are right that is not a surprise because neither can anyone else.

As someone with rights to a Scottish passport should such a thing come to pass I can only begin to imagine how cross the Scots will be if the NI have this and they don't. Then how cross leavers will be if everyone has this. This is a total horlicks, how does the government survive?

woman11017 · 04/12/2017 13:52

@drjanaway
Pizza Hut apologises for a partnership with The Sun. The paper has officially become too hateful to be an advertising opportunity.

@pizzahutdeliver
We apologise for any offence caused as a result of this partnership. The aim of this offer was simply to give our customers the chance to enjoy a free pizza to share with their family and friends.

Motheroffourdragons · 04/12/2017 13:53

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2017 13:56

Tony Connelly‏ @tconnellyRTE 2h
BREAKING: UK will concede that there will be no "regulatory divergence" on the island of Ireland on the single market and customs union, acc to a draft text seen by @rtenews
Acc to one version of EU-UK draft: “In the absence of agreed solutions the UK will ensure that there continues to be no divergence from those rules of the internal market + customs union which, now or in the future, support North South cooperation +protection of the GFA.”
The draft text on Ireland has since been updated to include the phrase "continued regulatory alignment" rather than "no regulatory divergence", acc to well-placed sources

Faisal Islam‏ @faisalislam
^Belgian MEP @ph_lamberts who has seen draft joint statement tells me live on @skynews Britain & EU have agreed to a "special situation for Ireland" to avoid hard border.
"uk government has come to terms with reality and that's a good thing".^
Lamberts MEP tells me wording agreeing to "full alignment" in key areas re border may sound like NI staying in the customs union or single market "but then again that's the only solution if you want to keep the Good Friday Agreement. Period."
UK diplomats have long tried to distinguish between
1. Regulatory Outcome Equivalence &
2. Harmonisation
- that would appear to be the difference between “alignment” over which there is theoretical choice & sovereignty, and “no divergence” with none
So we will have “Taken Back Control” of a decision in Northern Ireland theoretically to diverge from Ireland regulations, but be bound not to by the need to align to prevent a hard border & respect the Good Friday Agreement

In other words, we will have theoretically taken control and are able to diverge from EU regulations. In practice though, we can't because doing so would violate the GFA and create a hard border. The wording is merely a pretence to keep the idiots happy.

Its already not going well.

Nicola Sturgeon‏ @NicolaSturgeon
If one part of UK can retain regulatory alignment with EU and effectively stay in the single market (which is the right solution for Northern Ireland) there is surely no good practical reason why others can’t.

Steven McCaffery‏ @SMcC_TheDetail
The DUP's Sammy Wilson on @BBCTalkback comes out against regulatory alignment on island of Ireland in draft #Brexit deal and says it would be vetoed at Stormont (presumably by DUP), even though there is no Stormont. Declines to speculate on deal with UK Govt.

Laura Kuenssberg‏ @bbclaurak
Arlene Foster expected to talk to press in Stormont in about 10 minutes on Brexit deal

It looks like we might hear stuff before the 4pm meeting behind closed doors with Tory MPs. (Why is it behind closed doors we wonder? Is it because lots of MPs are going to go crazy at the fudge? Or because they are worried about the DUP - I guess we find out soon enough).

Taoisearch due to give press conference for 2.30pm.

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RedToothBrush · 04/12/2017 13:58

Peston on FB (just now)

When Jeremy Hunt said on Peston On Sunday that his party faced a choice of backing Theresa May or risking seeing the UK stay in the EU, he was addressing his cabinet colleagues Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, as much as estranged Brexiteering ultras on his backbenches.

Here is why (this is a dense and nuanced argument - but please bear with me).

The prime minister has clearly (and probably rightly) made the judgement that Parliament would not vote for a no-trade-deal or hard Brexit. So she has decided to concede to almost every demand made by the EU’s negotiators, so that talks on a transition agreement and trade deal can start before Christmas.

But - and this matters - the concessions she is making are anathema to Johnson and Gove, and a powerful constituency within her party.
As I have been saying for a fortnight, they include a Brexit divorce payment of up to £50bn.

They include a role for the European Court of Justice to adjudicate on the rights of EU migrants living here, on the occasions when the Supreme Court decides UK law is not decisive (these are likely to be rare - though for the Brexiteers it is the principle not the frequency that is hateful).

And they include a promise that there will be close regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland and the Republic so that a hard border between the two need never be re-introduced (customs checks on goods would not be needed if product standards north and south of the border continue to be the same).

Now it is with that very last concession that the PM is taking the political risk of her life, because in that concession she is in effect saying that a trade deal for the whole UK will also be based on a promise of close regulatory alignment between our country and the EU, in perpetuity.

That permanent regulatory convergence between the UK and EU is her preferred route, because without it her government would collapse: Northern Ireland’s DUP MPs, which are sustaining the Tories in office, have made it crystal clear that they will not accept a separate regulatory set-up for Northern Ireland from that prevailing in the UK as a whole.

But here is what I assume will be scaring the PM witless (it scares me, just as a bystander). She is signing up for close regulatory alignment between the UK and EU without ever having secured agreement for that from the Cabinet.

And for Johnson, Gove and most of the other more ardent Brexiteers, in and out of the Cabinet, almost the whole point of leaving the EU was for the UK to “take back control” of setting rules and regulations for British businesses.

To repeat, the PM will today move very close to making a promise that would mean the UK failing to reclaim rule-making sovereignty outside the UK.

And if her own Cabinet and backbench colleagues end up vetoing that offer, even if it is accepted by Juncker at today’s lunch, that would see the UK having no trade deal with the EU and being forced to reintroduce a peace-disrupting hard border with the Republic.

As I said earlier, May thinks MPs and Lords would reject such a no-trade-deal Brexit as too damaging both to the UK’s prosperity and too undermining of the fragile peace in Northern Ireland.

So she is in effect playing the highest stakes game of chicken with Johnson and Gove - and if she loses, her government could fall.

Or to put it another way, Jeremy Hunt might have gone further and warned his colleagues that failure to back May would see no Brexit and the probable advent of a Corbyn administration.

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LurkingHusband · 04/12/2017 13:58

As predicted, the ICO is getting into gear ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/04/dorries_i_give_my_staff_my_login_details/

From the comments ...

Template letter for your MP

Dear

following recent revelations from an MP regarding computer usage, could I ask for confirmation that any personal data I may exchange with your office is held in full accordance with current UK data protection legislation.
many thanks in advance

If you use www.writetothem.com/ then your request will be tracked.

mumisnotmyname · 04/12/2017 13:59

Sorry mother I think Brexit has caused me to totally lose my sense of humour, I'll be right behind you in the passport line.

woman11017 · 04/12/2017 14:00

DUP Brexit spokesman Sammy Wilson, whose party is effectively keeping Mrs May in Downing Street in a confidence and supply deal with the minority Tory Government, warned her not to proceed with regulatory alignment

He said: "I think that this is emanating from the Irish Government, obviously, trying to push the UK government into a corner in the negotiations

It is not well thought through. I don't think, given its promises, the British government could concede on this

www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/dup-reacts-to-brexit-draft-report-that-uk-ready-to-concede-to-special-status-deal-for-northern-ireland-36377167.html

OlennasWimple · 04/12/2017 14:01

I've had a civil service computer and email account for nearly 20 years. Even back in the day when there was no internet access from the networked machines (we had standalones in the corner of the office where you could go to look stuff up) the systems were capable of allowing access to email for other parties with a legitimate reason to access them (such as a secretary or PA being able to read and reply to their boss's messages).

Sharing your password has always been a disciplinary offence - even IT support doesn't know it. They can reset the password if you lock yourself out or forget it, and if they need to do something on your machine they either come in person and you have to hover awkwardly by while they do the necessary, or they access it remotely and you sit awkwardly while your computer seems to have a life of its own. And the system prompts a new password change every 1 or 3 months (depending on security requirements).

Nadine Dorries just needs to stop, doesn't she?

Anyway, I thought it interesting that Cressida Dick has spoken out today against her former police colleagues

lalalonglegs · 04/12/2017 14:03

Arlene Foster says that she will not accept divergence between NI and roUK - so we're staying in the SM, folks Smile Wine Cake

Peregrina · 04/12/2017 14:04

This is a total horlicks, how does the government survive?

I hope they don't. I hope it destroys the current incarnation of the Tory party for the rest of my lifetime - i.e. up to the next 25 - 30 years. Even the Tories in the 1950s didn't undo the NHS even though it wasn't something they voted for, and McMillan did build substantial numbers of council houses.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2017 14:04

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/04/special-status-northern-ireland-would-breach-good-friday-agreement/
Special status for Northern Ireland 'would breach Good Friday Agreement', Theresa May warned

Theresa May risks breaching the Good Friday Agreement if she caves in to the EU's demand for Northern Ireland to remain in the single market and customs union at a meeting in Brussels today, Unionists have warned.

Jim Nicholson, an MEP for the Ulster Unionist Party, said granting Northern Ireland special status, which has been pushed aggressively by EU officials and Irish nationalists, would be a "clear violation" of the treaty's principle of consent.

It comes as Theresa May heads to Brussels for a make-or-break lunch meeting with EU chiefs where she has been told she must come up with an improved offer on the terms of Britain's withdrawal.

Rock Meet Hard Place.
Hence the all important fudge.

Laura Kuenssberg‏ @bbclaurak
No 10 still suggesting deal is not in the bag - either just being cautious because who knows what Juncker will say to May over the starter, or there are still problems with Citizens' rights
Foster says DUP will not accept any regulatory divergence from rest of the UK - this is why final wording of text SO important - No 10 knows they can't get any of their Brexit legislation through without them

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lalalonglegs · 04/12/2017 14:04

Even Nigel Farage is just limiting himself to whining

@Nigel_Farage
This UK Government’s bitter betrayal of 17.4 million people today is a concession too far, for it will lead to endless problems in Scotland and it damages the integrity of the United Kingdom.
1:51 PM - Dec 4, 2017

woman11017 · 04/12/2017 14:06

@bbclaurak
Foster says DUP will not accept any regulatory divergence from rest of the UK - this is why final wording of text SO important - No 10 knows they can't get any of their Brexit legislation through without them

Hope Tsipris is having an ouzo and a good laugh at us. Smile

woman11017 · 04/12/2017 14:07

cross post Smile

Peregrina · 04/12/2017 14:12

she is in effect saying that a trade deal for the whole UK will also be based on a promise of close regulatory alignment between our country and the EU, in perpetuity.

In which case, why not call the whole thing off, and continue to have a say in how the EU develops and formulates rules? As Alan Sugar would say "It's a blardy shambles".

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2017 14:12

Not over till the fat lady sings, but right now it looks like we will end up with a BEANO solution.

In which we leave the EU, single market and customs union but this is essentially just so we can say we have theoretical sovereignty because otherwise we fuck up the GFA one way or another.

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RedToothBrush · 04/12/2017 14:14

norman smith‏ @BBCNormanS
DUP statement seemingly torpedoing Brexit deal on NI border

So there is some disagreement over whether we are at a BEANO or a No Deal situation.

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RedToothBrush · 04/12/2017 14:16

Paul Johnson‏ @paul__johnson
May's Irish border deal:
-No regulatory divergence -DUP's Foster
-A bitter betrayal - Farage
-We want what they've got - Sturgeon
Not going well
#Brexit

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woman11017 · 04/12/2017 14:16
Grin
Butterymuffin · 04/12/2017 14:18

So we'll do what Europe does but have no say in deciding what that is? That is TOTES taking back control.

LurkingHusband · 04/12/2017 14:18

To be honest, I don't think passwords are enough anymore. There should also be some sort of 2FA implemented. Maybe like the 2FA I was using ten fucking years ago working for UK energy supplier. Back then it was RSA keyfobs, but now there are any number of Smartphone apps that can provide the same. Google Authenticator for one. Currently that's securing 4 logins for me.

Bear in mind, this moronic MP is a member of the party that decided that "don't know" is not an answer you or I could be allowed to give in court when charged with a serious criminal offence.

I really hope no ones personal details have been compromised from correspondence with their MP - the implications are too dreadful to contemplate.

HashiAsLarry · 04/12/2017 14:19

Looks like the chatter I heard last night was spot on. And tbh I think the reason given holds too. They're too bound up in Parliament to deal with anything much more than brexit, and Labour will vote with them. They don't need the DUP for this. Especially the closer we look to single market.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2017 14:19

Laura Kuenssberg‏ @bbclaurak
For a moment when the choreography has been the subject of much fretting, it's not going entirely according to plan. Varadkhar statement delayed because May and Juncker still talking

FFS. Just concede we can't fucking do it May and save us from No Deal. In the best interests of the country.

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RedToothBrush · 04/12/2017 14:21

Sadiq Khan‏ @SadiqKhan
Huge ramifications for London if Theresa May has conceded that it's possible for part of the UK to remain within the single market & customs union after Brexit. Londoners overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU and a similar deal here could protect tens of thousands of jobs.

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahha!

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