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Brexit

Westministenders: Money, money, money

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/11/2017 21:52

The big developments are that the government have signalled they are prepared to pay more and to involve the ECJ when it comes to citizens rights on condition that we move to talk of trade. But no apparent progress on NI. Which is significant with Ireland threatening to veto.

The EU has not changed its stance at all. Since Day 1.

There is always a worrying omission and lack of commitment to retain the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The bonfire begins.

Talk is of Green still going in a reshuffle, possibly with Gove replacing him as Deputy PM.

Coalition talks in Germany have broken down, and the British have got excited about it, whilst the German response have largely been a slight shrug.

Its been a much quieter week, despite the budget. Thank goodness. There are lots of outstanding issues that are lurking in the background like the Green one though.

The main message coming from the budget, has not been any new policy, but the dreadful economic forecast for the next few years.

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OliviaD68 · 23/11/2017 11:21

@HashiAsLarry

Completely. I'm just shocked by the brazenness. Jaw dropping.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 11:29

The UK will not talk about a deal on NI until the last possible moment as its politically too sensitive to lean one way or another. That's why they want to ignore it and go to round two with it. So they can force through something that will be unpleasant at the last second - as the only solutions are unpleasant.

The EU do know this and I think will probably accommodate it if they can - that's why Ireland is threatening to veto, to stop the pressure to move forward now. And the EU will probably listen.

The biggest issue for Brexit has always been about NI and NI has the power to screw up everything. I said it before the referendum and it still holds true. Nothing has changed on this front.

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LurkingHusband · 23/11/2017 11:47

For those interested in the Irish dimension ...

www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/1123/922191-brexit-embassies/

European dismay at UK 'chaos and confusion' over Brexit
Updated / Thursday, 23 Nov 2017 09:15
There are concerns across European capitals that a breakthrough may not happen in December
An internal report by the Department of Foreign Affairs has painted a negative and deeply unflattering picture of Britain's performance in the Brexit negotiations.
It is based on an extensive round of meetings between senior Irish diplomatic figures and government officials in European capitals.
The confidential report, seen by RTÉ News, quotes senior EU figures as being alarmed by "chaos in the Conservative government", with British ministers and civil servants unable to agree a coherent policy on Brexit.
The report says there are significant concerns across European capitals that it will be difficult to break the deadlock in the negotiations ahead of the December summit.
The UK wants the EU27 to move on to the second phase of the talks covering trade as soon as possible.
So far, the EU has said that cannot happen until Britain makes concessions on its financial liabilities, citizens’ rights, and the border.
The paper is based on a series of meetings between Irish ambassadors and senior embassy officials and government and foreign ministry officials in ten EU member states and in Japan.
The document is a compilation of political reports from Irish embassies across Europe between 6 and 10 November.
This was some three weeks after the EU summit in Brussels during which EU leaders told Theresa May that Britain needed to do more on the three key issues.
The opinions voiced by EU ministers and senior officials to Irish diplomats reflect widespread pessimism and even scorn about the British government's negotiating position.
Some EU figures talk of "chaos" in the British government.
The report reveals that at a meeting between David Davis, Britain's Brexit Secretary, and the French ministers for Defence and European Affairs, Mr Davis barely mentioned Brexit.
This was much to the surprise of his hosts, who had regarded the meeting as an opportunity for Mr Davis to unblock French resistance to negotiations graduating to the next phase.
During a meeting in Luxembourg, the British judge in the European Court of justice bemoaned "the quality of politicians in Westminster".
Ian Forrester wondered if the British public might view Brexit as "a great mistake" when they realised what leaving the EU entailed.
A minister in the Czech government told his Irish interlocutors that Britain's Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was "unimpressive", but that at least he had "avoided any gaffes" during a visit in September.
The Czech Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs Jakub Dürr told officials "he felt sorry for British Ambassadors around the EU trying to communicate a coherent message when there is political confusion at home".

www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/1122/921997-coveney/
Ireland is determined to hold firm on the demand for matching customs rules on both sides of the border after Brexit, the Taoiseach has said.
Leo Varadkar said the proposal to avoid a hard border was backed by all members of the EU27, but he made clear that even if there was a softening of stance among other European leaders he would not back down.
"We have the absolute support of the other European Union member states that are remaining," he told the Dail.
"We have not come under any pressure as yet to soften our position.
"However, I am not so naive as to think that that may not occur. We will avoid at any cost being isolated. However, even if we are isolated, we have to hold to this position, in my view."
Responding to claims that the Irish and UK governments' relationship has markedly deteriorated due to their opposing views on how to manage the border, Mr Varadkar insisted personal relations remained "very good".
He added: "The difficulty is not so much one of relations or relationships but rather the enormous policy gap that now exists between a United Kingdom government that wants to leave the European Union - it seems to be pursuing a hard Brexit policy by leaving the single market and customs union - and an Irish government that accepts the decision the UK people have made but wants to protect our national interests, not only those relating to trade between Britain and Ireland but our national interests in respect of Northern Ireland as well."
He predicted a "difficult few weeks and months ahead" in the Brexit talks.
"This is potentially a historic decision for us," he said.
Politicians in Dublin and Brussels have warned that if Northern Ireland operated outside the rules of the customs union and single market it could have dire consequences for the island's economy and the cross-border provisions of the 1998 Good Friday peace agreement.
Europe is calling for a solution that would see Northern Ireland continue to be in compliance with the EU's regulatory framework, to enable the retention of a free-flowing border.
Mr Varadkar told TDs: "We think it can be best achieved if the United Kingdom, either on behalf of all of the UK or on behalf of Northern Ireland, commits to regulatory equivalence, that is to say, that we will operate the same rules and regulations. Without doing that, it is almost impossible to avoid some form of hard border."
This week DUP leader Arlene Foster accused Dublin and Brussels of acting "recklessly" in regard to Northern Ireland and claimed they were trying to use the region as a bargaining chip.
This suggestion of Northern Ireland operating under different trade regulations from the rest of the UK has angered the DUP and other unionists.
Earlier Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney claimed the UK was failing to offer credible answers to the "hard questions" Ireland and the EU were asking about the fate of the border.
Mr Coveney rejected suggestions that Dublin and Brussels are seeking to exploit the uncertainty over Northern Ireland's position to strengthen the EU's hand in the negotiations.
"We are certainly not seeking to exploit anything," Mr Coveney said on a visit to Belfast.
"We are trying to protect a peace process that so many people from all backgrounds, unionist and nationalist, have worked so hard to create."
The Fine Gael minister added: "What's happening here is we are asking the hard questions and unfortunately we are not getting credible answers, which is why I think some people seem to be uncomfortable."

www.rte.ie/news/2017/1122/921899-ni_power_sharing_haass/
Haass: Stormont crisis could bring push for Irish unity
Updated / Wednesday, 22 Nov 2017 23:49
Richard Haass says he hopes Northern Ireland crisis does not lead to any resumption of violence
A former US diplomat, who chaired previous political negotiations in Northern Ireland, has predicted the current power-sharing impasse could bring a push for Irish unity.
Richard Haass said a combination of poor leadership, Brexit and failure to deal with the legacy of the past had created the problems facing Stormont.
Mr Haass, the current president of the New York based Council on Foreign Relations, expressed hope that the political deadlock would not usher in a return to violence.
In 2013, Mr Haass was drafted in to chair crunch talks aimed at averting the collapse of power-sharing.
Despite weeks of cross-party negotiations in Belfast, he failed to find a breakthrough on the thorny issues of flags, parading and the legacy of the Troubles.
He had previously served as special envoy to Northern Ireland under the presidency of George W Bush.
The Stormont Executive has not sat since power-sharing between the DUP and Sinn Féin collapsed in January.
Protracted talks to resolve the ongoing disagreements around language and cultural issues, including over whether to have an Irish Language Act, have failed to yield a breakthrough.
British Prime Minster Theresa May met both sides at Downing Street yesterday and said she remained hopeful an agreement can be reached.
Last night, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said he would urge the recall of the British Irish Inter-Governmental Conference if a deal to revive power-sharing proved elusive.

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 12:10

Aston Martin, Honda and Mike Hawes, Chief Executive, Society for Motor Manufacturers and Traders, at a parliamentary committee on Brexit.

These guys are very worried. Explain the issues facing the industry. Mike Hawes, said UK automative industry exports around 80% of the cars produced. Of this around 56% are exported to the other countries in the EU. Four times bigger than next biggest market, the US. So much for they need us more than we need them. 86% of vehicles sold in UK imported, vast majority from the rest of the EU. But represents much small proportion of EU exports. A population of around 7 times larger than UK. Their continued trade with other markets will still exist. "EU membership has not been a barrier to exploring emerging markets, German car manufacturers have pursued those emerging markets with alacrity." But UK will be out of the FTA's. Increase costs and may have to stop production in case of delay. Non tariffs barriers may be more difficult to tariff barriers. Type Approvals a big unknown. Vehicle Certificate Authority issue them in the UK now accord to EU Regs.. You cannot hold certification by two authorities at the same time.

Why the heck weren't these people on QT or media in the run up to the Referendum? Or now?

14:24/14:25 minutes in.

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/e7386299-0274-44e9-b9c4-d204c7914db9

www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/ecwvta-framework-directive.asp

The point of waking up to a different economy the day after Brexit is sobering. Especially with no preparation or transitional arrangement in place. Everything falls away. Regs, Approvals, etc.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 23/11/2017 12:13

Reports suggest UK cities no longer eligible for capital of culture status.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 12:13

Jim Waterson‏ @jimwaterson
The UK was due to host a European capital of culture city in 2023 despite Brexit but the EU's now changed its mind and told Britain to piss off.

www.politico.eu/article/brussels-says-european-capital-of-culture-cant-be-in-the-uk/?utm_content=buffer269d2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Brussels says European Capital of Culture can’t be in the UK
European Commission says Brexit vote means a British city can’t be awarded the title in 2023.

The European Commission told the U.K. government a British city cannot be a European Capital of Culture in 2023 — even though the scheme is open to countries that aren’t in the bloc.

Closest possible and special relationship anyone?

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RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 12:15

Marcus Leroux‏ @marcusleroux
Excruciating David Davis anecdote in @tconnellyRTE’s excellent Brexit & Ireland.

Westministenders: Money, money, money
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Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 12:19

As for the Agincourt thing and the Irish. They would have been fighting against the French, but it would have been Hiberno Normans fighting with the successors of their kinsmen at the Helm of England. Not the English/ Anglo-Saxons that William the Bustard conquered, but the changing of the guard after Hastings. Lots of Hiberno Normans on the Agincourt List.

OliviaD68 · 23/11/2017 12:25

@Cailleach1

What was the reaction of committee members to the contribution of the auto industry?

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 12:26

But to clarify about strange obsessions, there aren't church services for the 'hero' Irish Normans of Agincourt in Ireland. I wonder why there isn't a service in Wesminster or St. Pauls for Hasting and 1066, if they are going back to Agincourt? Who would be the side you'd honour as fighting for their country? English or Normans? It might be a bit hot under the collar for some whose family got their lands 'allocated' then, including Queenie. After all, they was on the 'foreign' conquerers side. And immigrants to boot.

Peregrina · 23/11/2017 12:26

I recall that last year some Leavers were adamant that there was no mention of the EU in the Good Friday Agreement. I believe, going from memory now, that it was mentioned in the Introduction.

I can also remember some Leavers being adamant that we already had to have passports to enter either part of the island of Ireland, so what' was the problem. Just because Ryanair insists, doesn't make it law.

Peregrina · 23/11/2017 12:31

William the Bustard Grin. Not some now extinct bird, but known as the bastard in French. Cuts him down to size.

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 12:38

Olivia, a relative sane Brexit Committee. They were asking good questions but then also allowed them to speak. The frank and 'from the horse's mouth' answers gave a quite sobering atmosphere.

Mark Pawsey, a Con who was not a Brexiteer did try to open up the 'what are the upsides or opportunities conversation'. Hawes answer about the EU not having been a barrier in that to the past put that in it's place. Pawsey, to give him his due, just posed the question. He wasn't dismissing them as pessimistic.

Watching the video, the bleakness comes from no preparation. Nobody knows what is the transition is. There is nothing in place. How are they going to plan ahead? The logistics and non tariff barriers will decimate the industry if gov't is not looking ahead and putting regs and systems in place.

PattyPenguin · 23/11/2017 12:40

Excuse me, Peregrina, but bustards are not extinct. They're been reintroduced to the UK and seem to be doing well. Booming well, in fact!

greatbustard.org/

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 12:50

Do you remember that French politician by the name of Le Pen??

www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2017/11/marine-le-pen-finished
Is Marine Le Pen finished?
Marine Le Pen has survived many political troubles before, but her struggle since the French election is unprecedented

Now the troubles are personal. After losing her parliamentary immunity in the European Parliament earlier this year (for tweeting photos of IS victims in 2015), Marine Le Pen was elected MP in the French National Assembly for the first time, which meant she regained an immunity. That was until the National Assembly lifted it too, in August, in the same case. She is also being investigated, like other members of the FN, in a scandal around potential “fake” jobs in the party.

In the latest blow against the struggling FN leader, Marine Le Pen has seen her bank accounts closed, first the FN’s 30-year-old accounts at the French bank Société Générale on 21 November, and then a personal account she has had for 25 years at HSBC, on 22 November. She has called the move a “banking persecution” before threatening to sue both banks. (Société Générale has declared that the closures had nothing to do with politics and were purely banking-related).

Why have we heard so little about this in the British press?

(Rhetorical question btw).

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RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 13:02

Daniel Hewitt‏ @DanielHewittITV
NEWS: Bury South MP Ivan Lewis suspended by the Labour Party.

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Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 13:02

Since the media did not show DD telling a parliamentary committee that 'it would be a matter for negotiations' about the EMA and EBA leaving alongside a clip of the EU27 voting for the new destinations, no omission surprises me. They might have to mention Farage and UKIP are also under investigation for corruption by OLAF. But ne'er a squeak.

There was one situation when a kipper was asked to comment on some tv politics programme about the investigation into the Con's alleged election transgressions. Still ne'er a word they themselves were being investigated.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2017 13:03

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42092171?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
Apprenticeship numbers fall by 59% after levy imposed

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Motheroffourdragons · 23/11/2017 13:10

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Peregrina · 23/11/2017 13:10

but bustards are not extinct.

Oops, fallen into a Brexit trap - I knew that they had been driven to extinction in England. If something pertains in England it must be so in the rest of the world. I will give myself a slapped wrist.

Motheroffourdragons · 23/11/2017 13:12

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 23/11/2017 13:13

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PattyPenguin · 23/11/2017 13:16

On the apprenticeships story, no wonder the numbers have plummeted - so many so-called apprenticeships were just jobs being done by people who were paid less than the minimum wage, no training involved.

One quote from the BBC story is telling: "Many employers say they cannot afford to release staff for one day a week and do not want to make the 10% contribution to the training costs."

Cailleach1 · 23/11/2017 13:20

Stroke city, Strabane, North, West and South Belfast would have had a predominant remain vote. Also Dundee.

Notthingham, Leeds and Milton Keynes voted to leave.

PattyPenguin · 23/11/2017 13:22

The DCMS make me laugh.
".."deeply disappointed" that the Commission had waited until the UK cities had submitted their bids before "communicating this new position to us"."

Of course the Commission waited until UK cities had submitted bids. They no doubt thought that as the UK is pulling out of anything and everything with Euro in its title, no UK cities would submit bids, and were probably surprised when the bids came in.

Yes, cities which are currently outside the EU have been selected previously, but they are in states that want to join not states that are flipping leaving.