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Brexit

Westministenders: Money, money, money

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/11/2017 21:52

The big developments are that the government have signalled they are prepared to pay more and to involve the ECJ when it comes to citizens rights on condition that we move to talk of trade. But no apparent progress on NI. Which is significant with Ireland threatening to veto.

The EU has not changed its stance at all. Since Day 1.

There is always a worrying omission and lack of commitment to retain the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The bonfire begins.

Talk is of Green still going in a reshuffle, possibly with Gove replacing him as Deputy PM.

Coalition talks in Germany have broken down, and the British have got excited about it, whilst the German response have largely been a slight shrug.

Its been a much quieter week, despite the budget. Thank goodness. There are lots of outstanding issues that are lurking in the background like the Green one though.

The main message coming from the budget, has not been any new policy, but the dreadful economic forecast for the next few years.

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mrsquagmire · 25/11/2017 11:21

Thanks bigchoc, and yes, I think Louise Mensch does have a lot of form!

RedToothBrush · 25/11/2017 11:26

Those ancestry kits are pseudo science. They are about as useful as astrology. They do however get you to hand over your DNA to data company without thinking about what you might be handing over in the process.

Louise Mensch is applying a scatter gun and not really saying anything which isn't fitting with other stories out there. Whether it's true or not we don't know. It's likely that that's been said by security services, but May can't politically say it either because to do so would have other consequences.

Take Mensch with a grit truck's worth of salt. She's making the right noises but the credibility of sources is dubious and can not be scrutinised.

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BigChocFrenzy · 25/11/2017 11:38

All these fake stories will get dismissed
so when people hear evidence of the real interference - less dramatic but still significant - they'll dismiss it as more of the same.

Noone "normal" has picked up this story, so for me a Mensch tweet is nowhere near enough for more than a glance

BigChocFrenzy · 25/11/2017 11:50

No End in Sight to the Brexit Madness
The view from over the pond, where the non-fascist part of the media have continued their job of holding the executive to account, instead of just collaborating

The views would be expressed far more firmly by the US govt, if anyone but Trump were POTUS

We forget how extraordinary this is, that the US is not in its usual role of supporting Western democracies, but actually cheering on those trying to tear them down
Brexit would be so different - if the US hadn't lost its senses a the same time.

Any normal Republican or Democrat POTUS would have slapped down a delusional UK govt, just like President Eisenhower did over Suez.
Especially when the deluded are ignoring the GFA and risking peace in Ireland.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/no-end-in-sight-to-the-brexit-madness

Earlier this month, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, an independent think tank, estimated that
Brexit has already cost each British household about six hundred pounds

“How can this be happening in a country known for its pragmatism?”

WhollyFather · 25/11/2017 11:58

The cowardice and spinelessness of our government is both amazing and appalling. We owe the EU nothing over and above our regular contributions until 11pm on 28th March 2019, and the ECJ should not have - and better not have - any jurisdiction in the UK whatsoever after we leave. It's embarrassing that May and co. cannot find the nuts to just tell the EU to do one and walk out. WTO will be fine.

Any money loss at this stage is purely guesswork and needs to be set against a far greater prize, regaining our democratic self-determination.

HashiAsLarry · 25/11/2017 12:07

Now now ladies (and lh), don't you realise how frustrating you are to wholly? His mansplaining interventions should have been enough threads ago, but here you all are carrying on like you have the capacity to think. Know your places for crying out loud 😂

RhiannonOHara · 25/11/2017 12:09

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squoosh · 25/11/2017 12:24

I'd love to believe Louise Mensch is right but doesn't she have form for tweeting that arresting officers are at Trump's door and it's all over for him?

Sadly yes, although it's nonetheless very interesting that such an ultra Brexiteer as herself is tweeting this.

Peregrina · 25/11/2017 12:30

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Frankiestein401 · 25/11/2017 12:38

so @whollyfather I'll bot bait, if we say we owe nothing after 2019, the eu disagree and we try to negotiate any kind of reasonable trade deal after 'showing some spine' what sort of deals would the eu be willing to offer?

in any case it's nonsense to suggest we have no obligations beyond 19 - our MEPs voted for budgets that will have resulted in contractual commitments through the budget period - we can't expect the eu to renege on those contracts or meet our share just because we're trying to withdraw mid budget.

As for the ecj having no influence - depends on the buyer/seller -
contractual jurisdiction is usually that defined by the seller - try looking at software t's and c's - contracts where eu courts have jurisdiction will be created long after we've dropped out of the g7 let alone the eu because of this idiocy

I don't expect our permanent seat on the security council to last either.

HashiAsLarry · 25/11/2017 12:45

Don't bother with wholly. He's only pops on to mansplain for a post then doesn't come back.

TheNumberfaker · 25/11/2017 12:50

"The government's Office for Budget Responsibility published revised GDP growth numbers based on data following the June 2016 referendum. Those new estimates suggest that Brexit will cost Britain £72 billion in lost annual economic activity by 2021, according to an analysis by the Resolution Foundation." Taken from uk.businessinsider.com/the-economic-cost-of-brexit-in-gdp-2017-11?r=US&IR=T
That's £72 billion a year. WTO will be fine. you say...

howabout · 25/11/2017 13:38

Every commentator including the Resolution Foundation Report have referenced has noted that the productivity downgrade and consequent GDP forecast impact has been in evidence since the banking crisis a decade ago.

The timing of the reality check is the only link to Brexit.

A cynic might suggest the establishment is using Brexit as a convenient scapegoat for woeful analysis in the previous decade. Also helps to cover up the non-emergence of Project Fear and the damage done by Osbornomics.

lonelyplanetmum · 25/11/2017 14:03

Ah well, at least there has been a clear acknowledgement from a guest mansplainer that there will be money loss! " Any money loss at this stage is purely guesswork.. "

Yup- that's why we want to see the impact assessments.

But this shift is a glimmer for building unity across the country going forwards.At least remain and leave supporters now all agree there will be (huge) money loss.It's a start.We agree on something.

Sigh.All we need to get agreement on now is the fact that (as the gov said in the white paper) we never lost any sovereignty, just helpfully shared a little bit of joint decision making over the environment and food etc.

IrenetheQuaint · 25/11/2017 14:43

My sources suggest that the impact assessments are lightweight to the point of being utterly embarrassing (though perhaps more detailed ones are being drawn up now... one can only hope so).

I'm still reeling from the revelation upthread that the decision to leave the single market and customs union was made by the PM and Nick Timothy in isolation. WTAF?

lalalonglegs · 25/11/2017 14:46

Since - prior to the election - TM seemed to have an Elizabeth I complex, I can't say I'm surprised. What infuriates me to the point of insanity is that she has kept this policy going (well, limping along in her own inimitable way).

SwedishEdith · 25/11/2017 15:12

Worse than that, Irene, it was made only by Nick Timothy. She'll have just agreed to it because he said so.

SwedishEdith · 25/11/2017 15:18

The increase in social media use is, possibly, one reason for loss of productivity. I'd include open plan offices as well.

bankunderground.co.uk/2017/11/24/is-the-economy-suffering-from-the-crisis-of-attention/

LurkingHusband · 25/11/2017 17:00

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/think-brexit-negotiations-are-going-badly-its-about-to-get-a-whole-lot-worse

If you have been following politics of late, it will not have escaped your notice that progress in the Brexit negotiations has been painfully slow. Eight months on from the triggering of Article 50, Britain has managed to stumble over every imaginable hurdle. It has been like watching a car crash in slow motion.

Britain is desperate to move on from simply discussing exit terms—it wants talks on the future trading relationship. But the EU has maintained that it will not move in this direction until the UK offers some clarity on EU citizens’ rights, the Irish border (a nightmarishly complex issue), and the Brexit “divorce bill” to settle the UK’s financial obligations.

Until recently, there had been no progress on the UK side whatsoever. But now, after months of huffing and puffing, it looks like the UK may be about to make the much-needed breakthrough. On the divorce bill, at least, there have been more positive noises coming from No 10, with Theresa May doubling her offer from £20bn to £40bn. There is a chance, if things move further still, that the EU will decide “sufficient progress” has been made at its December summit and that talks on the future relationship can begin.

Great news, you might think. You’d be wrong. The problem with entering phase two of Brexit talks is that Britain has no idea what it wants out of a future trading relationship. The prime minister doesn’t know what she wants, cabinet doesn’t know what it wants, parliament doesn’t know what it wants and the public don’t know what they want. If you thought phase one was bad, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Here’s why.

When Britain enters phase two, it will be confronted with a simple choice: do we want trade or control? And we don’t know the answer to this question. Indeed, we haven’t even accepted it’s a choice we’ll have to make. But the reality is that if we want lots of trade, we have to give up some control. If we want lots of control, we have to give up some trade. It’s as simple as that. This is why it is so unhelpful to hear politicians pretend this choice does not exist. You cannot have your cake and eat it. Each bite of the cake you consume means there is that much less cake on the table.

Global free trade is about cooperation on regulation. This fact has driven most British free trade advocates mad. They’ve been fed a daily diet of “Brussels red tape strangles UK business” for decades. In their minds, the word “regulation” signifies a restriction on free trade. But in reality, cooperating on regulation facilitates trade. It means two countries can ship goods between them without long checks at the border to make sure they satisfy domestic legal requirements. The EU single market is the absolute pinnacle of regulatory cooperation. It melds economies together so tightly that any service, good, person or money can flow freely, as if national boundaries did not exist.

Britain has said that it wants to leave this market. Outside it, there are three basic approaches to cooperation: harmonisation, equivalence and mutual recognition. Harmonisation agrees the exact same standards and how to reach them. Equivalence is slightly different. It means you have the same standards, but allow for different ways of reaching them. Mutual recognition is a much less significant tool. These are agreements, usually between government bodies, which basically say that they trust each other to do the tests for their respective countries.

Here’s the problem. Brits have been told for nearly two years now that they can have everything: total control and total free trade. They can’t. Britain will have to make important decisions about these approaches, representing different levels of control for different levels of free trade. Mutual recognition hardly gives up any control, but then it hardly gets you any trade. Harmonisation gets you lots of trade, but gives up lots of control. There is no total control, outside perhaps of North Korea.

The truth is Britain is pretty much alone in the direction it is taking. The rest of the world is consolidating regulatory arrangements, not severing them.

Brexiters love talking about the World Trade Organisation, which they see as a free trade paradise. But when we sit there independently, we will be presented with two monstrous infringements on sovereignty: The Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures and the Agreement on Technical Barriers to Trade. These two documents commit WTO members to basing their national regulations on relevant international standards.

All trade deals involve a similar loss of sovereignty. If we manage to maintain frictionless trade with Europe, it will be because we signed up to their regulations. Or we can turn our backs on Europe and sign a free trade agreement with the US. But as US commerce secretary Wilbur Ross made clear earlier this month, that involves signing up to their regulations.

If we really are intent on Brexit, we need to start talking realistically. How much control do we want and what kind of control should it be? How many jobs are we prepared to lose as a result? Will we sign up to European standards or American ones?

But these conversations are not happening. They are not happening among the public, who are barely aware of any of this. They are not happening in TV or radio studios, where producers run away from technical discussions. They are not happening in parliament, where MPs seem to be mostly motivated by tribal hysteria. They are not happening in cabinet, where Theresa May has literally banned discussion of them. And they are not happening in the prime minister’s head, given that she does not appear to understand them.

Britain should be concerned by the possibility of moving onto the next stage of Brexit talks. Because when we do, EU negotiators will ask: “What do you want?” And the truth is, we don’t know.

Peregrina · 25/11/2017 17:14

I'd include open plan offices as well.
I hated these at work. Largish offices with say 6 - 8 people in, I found worked well.

Bolshybookworm · 25/11/2017 17:33

I agree with you How that the loss of productivity is a long standing problem not solely due to Brexit. The question is whether Brexit will make it better or worse. Two key issues are investment and education. I can't see Brexit increasing funding to either of these areas tbh. We also need a major shift change in public thinking, particularly on education, and I can't see that happening either. The Tories have a very, very traditional view on education when what we need is a big rethink on how we are training young people and what we are training them for. Brexit will suck up government time and resources for a generation and these big issues will just get left by the way side. I think what will happen is that ambitious young people will take their talents abroad and productivity will continue to fall.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 25/11/2017 17:34

LH - piffle! The EU will be so desperate to trade with us that they’ll sign up to our terms, not the other way round. Wink

Good piece about anecdotal Bregrets vs stubborn polls in the Graun: www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/protest-vote-regret-voting-leave-brexit

Bolshybookworm · 25/11/2017 17:34

Open plan offices are a nightmare for any work that requires concentration!

OlennasWimple · 25/11/2017 17:35

It's harder to waste time messing around on social media in an open plan office, though Smile

woman11017 · 25/11/2017 17:54

On our lovely genetic and cultural tapestry, discussed upthread, I just found out about this today. An African lady in Eastbourne in 200AD. No one knows why. It's nice though. Smile
Beachy Head Lady:
The Beachy Head Lady is an ancient skeleton discovered in Beachy Head, East Sussex, England. The Beachy Head Lady lived during the Roman period, around 200 to 250 AD, and is thought to have originated from Sub-Saharan Africa.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beachy_Head_Lady
Always cheered by our visitors. Brexit is literally going west. Grin