Westministenders: Money, money, money

[RedToothBrush]

The big developments are that the government have signalled they are prepared to pay more and to involve the ECJ when it comes to citizens rights on condition that we move to talk of trade. But no apparent progress on NI. Which is significant with Ireland threatening to veto.

The EU has not changed its stance at all. Since Day 1.

There is always a worrying omission and lack of commitment to retain the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The bonfire begins.

Talk is of Green still going in a reshuffle, possibly with Gove replacing him as Deputy PM.

Coalition talks in Germany have broken down, and the British have got excited about it, whilst the German response have largely been a slight shrug.

Its been a much quieter week, despite the budget. Thank goodness. There are lots of outstanding issues that are lurking in the background like the Green one though.

The main message coming from the budget, has not been any new policy, but the dreadful economic forecast for the next few years.

Thanks Hollis that did the trick. Sadly the first post afterwards read 'Islam 100%' so I was probably better off oblivious.

The RoI, supported by the E27, is scrabbling around frantically trying to save the Good friday Agreement,
but even though it's a UK territory, the UK are either com0letely disregarding NI or reserving it as just another bargaining chip

It's like the UK has taken a dump in the lounge and are sitting around debating whether they have to clean it up because they're moving house anyway

Icant DNA studies don't prove intermarriage, they prove interbreeding. The social relationships between the parents could be of any kind, including master and slave.

The references in Anglo-Saxon literature, such as riddles, refer to the Welsh, i.e. the indigenous British, as slaves, dark, ugly, drunken lesser beings.

Debby Banham's article "Anglo‐Saxon attitudes: In search of the origins of English racism", in the European Review of History (1994) , on the attitudes of the dominant ethnic group in Anglo‐Saxon England, the Germanic ‘settlers’, to the subordinate group, the indigenous British, is very interesting.

More on The UK losing its ICJ judge: Losing influence & power already

The UK has always had a judge on the court, since its founding in 1946
This loss is probably just the first in a series of embarrassing international humiliations and losses.

• Giving notice to abandoning all trade deals, especially the best possible deal with its big neighbouring trade bloc, slashed UK influence at a stroke
• The UK gained much power & influence from being in the EU and does NOT have the means to replace this.
• The US does NOT have a "Special Relationship" with the UK - it dumps the UK whenever it is US interests to do so. Even under Trump. Like in the ICJ.
• Much of the Commonwealth do NOT feel loyalty to their old colonial masters. Au contraire.
• The UK did not dare to oppose its seat going to India, because of needing a trade deal with India - who said negotiations could take until 2030. A long time to be backing down from India. By 2030, they'll own us
• The RoW contains several old enemies who will relish settling old scores with a weakened UK, cut adrift by its own hand.

https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21731655-building-global-britain-after-brexit-may-prove-difficult-britain-loses-its-judge-world

One observer says British diplomats lobbied hard but were undermined by their foreign secretary, who is known internationally for writing about the “watermelon smiles” of Africans
and suggesting that Barack Obama’s Kenyan ancestry might have influenced his attitude to Britain.

Britain’s allies declined to offer much support.
America is said to have joined others in pulling the plug on a last-minute attempt to ensure Sir Christopher’s election.
And Britain’s inability to carry the UN’s general assembly, whose approval judges need, points to less than unanimous backing from EU and Commonwealth countries.
.....
Mr Johnson says that Brexit offers a chance to create a “global Britain” that strides beyond its “immediate European hinterland” and gets closer to the rising powers of the 21st century.
Failing to retain its judge on the ICJ points to how hard that may prove

Great audience on any questions tonight. Apparently a group of them turned up in EU hats and one of the questions was whether the ineligibility of our cities for the European city of culture will finally put to bed the assumption we can have our cake and eat it (paraphrasing).

Huge cheers from the audience for anything anti brexit but bath did vote overwhelmingly to remain.

Watched Sky News briefly this afternoon. Peter Lilley was being interviewed about our "Brexit" payment. He was asked how much we owed. He answered, "Legally, zero "

I turned over at that point yes I know I should have stayed and listened to his justification but I feared for my TV

.

Will the possible fall of the Fine Gael minority government and possible election of a Fianna Fail government, either majority or minority (possibly supported by either Sinn Fein or Fine Gael) affect Ireland's NI/Brexit approach?

Probably not. The political balance in Dail Eireann is so tight that FG has taken a tack that has had a good deal of approval from all other parties.

Fianna Fail /SF would probably enter an election campaign with the advantage of having a historically more hardline approach to the border and the question of a 32 county republic than FG, however, which was historically seen as more of a West Brit* party. With SF always an outflanking threat to FF on the question of the border, I would see FF's position becoming even more firm than FG's - if that is actually possible; FG has been very firm on the issue of the GFA and the border and has done well diplomatically and in terms of PR (Varadkar quite a hit) in the EU.

FG has won votes for its more progressive approach to social issues in the past decade, while FF is hampered by a more conservative approach that has lost it votes in Dublin. So a return of FG might happen in any election, though I doubt Micheál Martin would be pressing FG on the issue of Frances Fitzgerald's resignation unless polling was strongly suggesting that the name 'Fianna Fail the Republican Party' was really resonating with voters, or unless the motion of no confidence in Fitzgerald that was tabled by SF has really spooked them into hopping aboard the bandwagon.

*Some suggestions here www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/5owo1l/whos_the_biggest_west_brit/ as to what is a West Brit and who is a West Brit include:
Ruth Dudley-Edwards 'pathological in her anti-Irishness'.
(I would say all of the Dudley-Edwardses actually...)
John Bruton
Conor Cruise O'Brien

I believe an article by Ruth D-E was mentioned on the last thread.

Black Friday

Patty The existence of riddles does not mean that Anglo Saxons did not intermarry with Celts. Nor does the writings in the Anglo Saxons chronicles (written in the 9th century so 400 years after the Saxons first came, distributed to different monasteries and then independently updated - with no one checking that anything written was accurate.) And whilst that article sounds fascinating, it is from 23 years ago, when very little was known about DNA - not that I think this article was using DNA to prove anything? When I was at university studying archaeology we were informed to never rely on anything published more than 5 years old because everything moves so fast.
This modern widespread genetic study has used the cutting edge of science to look into the past. The people living in England today are 60%+ Celtic or earlier DNA and only between 10-40% Anglo Saxon. (and that's individuals, not 10-40% of the population are completely AS, whilst the majority are Celtic. Every single person tested was mostly Celtic or earlier.) The Saxon genetic influence on England, and the fact it is much smaller than previously believed, is suggestive of there being far wider cultural mixing than was ever assumed.
There is, however massive genetic between different groups. There are three distinct genetic groups in Wales alone, and Wales is very different genetically to the people living in England (who are still at least 60% Celtic). Your evidence of Anglo Saxon culture laughing at the Welsh is perfectly consistent with the genetic findings. But of course the Welsh are not the only native Britons -England was populated, the Brigantes, the Icenis, the Catuvellauni etc -they were still there, they intermarried with the Saxons, and their descendants still live in Britain. There is scientific proof! Modern science is changing the way we understand the past. it means a lot of preconceptions will have to be lost - but genetics don't lie. Chroniclers do. 1994 was 1994, we have better evidence at our disposal now.

I have just watched the last leg - they talked about how whilst the rest of the world is getting richer, Britain is headed into a massive recession and has suffered the worst slump in living standards since ...I don't remember when they said, but a while. They did not in any way link this to Brexit. It is the quietness of the media that is really beginning to upset me Brexit wise now, especially on shows where they are meant to be irreverent and brutally honest. In order for there to be a change in opinion on Brexit the public need to realise that things going badly in Britain are a result of Brexit. how are they going to do this when no one on the television will come out and say it? Not even the fucking comedians!

Peter Lilley was being interviewed about our "Brexit" payment. He was asked how much we owed. He answered, "Legally, zero " shock

By the same token of course, was the Referendum binding? Legally no.

Spitting Image used to portray him as a member of the Gestapo, if I remember correctly.

Britain is headed into a massive recession and has suffered the worst slump in living standards since ...I don't remember when they said, but a while.

Didn't they say that productivity was the worst since Napoleonic times?
I can't help think that we are going through the same collective madness as Nazi Germany did, where significant numbers of an educated, cultured nation apparently took leave of their senses, and those who didn't were hamstrung not knowing exactly what to do to stop it.

Didn't they say that productivity was the worst since Napoleonic times?

Probably, but I had sunk into a malaise and didn't catch all the pertinent details.

I wish Godwin's law had never been invented. Because the parallels to Germany in the 30s are truly terrifying, but as soon as you bring them up, people switch off and disregard what you are saying because of sodding Godwin.

I don't even get me started on the #howtomakebritainrichagain thing they ran. They know the answer! stop Brexit! shame on you Adam Hill for not saying so and instead turning it into a bit of lighthearted fun. #isitok that the media refuse to tell the truth about what is happening and are allowing the people of Britain to sleepwalk into the biggest disaster to ever hit the country?
Short answer: no

The Normans were very much 'citizens of the world' - they controlled Sicily and the southern half of Italy by 1154, after a creeping conquest that began with the arrival of Norman mercenaries about the year 1000. There are numerous examples of the fusion between the Norman and Arab styles of architecture and decorative motifs in the Norman buildings that remain in Sicily and the south of Italy.

I was lucky enough to see Professor Alice Roberts give a talk (plugging her new book) recently.

In the Q&A she said that our understanding of the human genome is shifting almost monthly, and that current research suggests that the Neanderthal species of hominoid did not become extinct at all, but subsumed into the homo sapiens genome. We are the descendants of Neanderthals. They didn't "die out" but we absorbed.

Current thinking, based on population numbers.

Bearing in mind I saw a BBC documentary about 15 years ago which stated confidently that H. Sapiens and H. Neanderthal never bred, it's quite shift ....

Just been reading about the Greek word "philotimo"

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20170605-the-greek-word-that-cant-be-translated

It's a word that our current batch of politicians couldn't comprehend, let alone put it into a practice - but may be a word that the rest of UK society should learn to understand, to help us get through the difficult years to come

We are the descendants of Neanderthals. They didn't "die out" but we absorbed.

I knew it. There are some people I know and I say they are just Neanderthals.

Disclaimer: I know Neanderthals have got a bad press from herrenvolk homo sapiens.

We are the descendants of Neanderthals. They didn't "die out" but we absorbed.

I once saw Dara O'Briain and (I think) Ed Byrne do a Neanderthal DNA test on one of Dara's science shows to find out what %age neanderthal they were. I know those DNA kits that get advertised can be ...suspect, to say the least - but finding out how neanderthal you are is a thing now. (Even if the results are not accurate)

I wouldn't trust Bede.

Won't divert Reds great thread, but a divergence between related tribes can occur- genetic drift. More evident in small populations.

I think the more we learn, the more we are aware of the gaps in our knowledge.

It seems as though Australia didn't get the Brexit memo about rushing in to do trade deals with us.

Er, Louise Mensch is tweeting “Multiple sources with links to UK intelligence say Theresa May will be warned the #Brexit referendum was so corrupted by Russian money and influence as not to be 'free and fair’” What’s that about? If anything.

The USA, India, China ... the E27 ... didn't get that memo either ....
I wonder if any country did ?

That story comes from here:

https://patribotics.blog/2017/11/24/exclusive-brexit-referendum-may-need-to-be-redone/amp/

We have no idea how reliable the sources of that blog are, or indeed the blog itself.
I'd wait until it is picked up by more mainstream media, at least the Guardian

Unless there is cast-iron evidence that can be published, I suspect few voters would believe it and that even some who voted Remain may be reluctant to do so again.

It would take an enormous amount of evidence for the scandal to be acknowledged anyway, rather than covered up in the good old traditional British way

• anyone else old enough to remember Kim Philby and the days whenever someone in UK intelligence sneezed, you wondered if they were sneezing in code to the KGB ?

British intelligence then, including at high levels, was riddled with traitors working for the USSR. Politicians too - former chairman of the Labour party, Tom Driberg, was exposed as a Russian agent, but allowed to continue in politics, because it would have opened up a can of worms in both major parties.

This bit of the blog I can believe:
"Sources with links to both UK and US intelligence also believed, however, that there was major anxiety within the British government – among all major parties – of politicians’ links to the Russian state being exposed."

I'd love to believe Louise Mensch is right but doesn't she have form for tweeting that arresting officers are at Trump's door and it's all over for him?