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Brexit

Westministenders: The Tory Civil War – The Knives Are Out Again. A Big Battle Looms.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2017 13:56

Today has seen the publication of a story about how Johnson and Gove are holding May hostage in a ‘soft coup’ and have made various demands over what they want for a hard Brexit. The letter which was for May’s and Barwell’s eyes only has some how leaked. Don’t forget how Gove has just joined the Brexit Cabinet.

It comes at a time, when the Observer is also leading with an editorial demanding Johnson goes over his handling of the Nazarin Zagheri-Ratcliffe case as well as his long list of poorly judged comments which have had diplomatic consequences and another newspaper is leading with a story about how 40 Tories are ready to no-confidence May.

It all smacks of a personal battle between May and Johnson to govern the party, which has been playing out publicly for some time, most noticeable in the parallel Tory party conference leadership speeches and Johnson’s freelancing.

Johnson also seems to be potentially caught up, with what happens in the Mueller investigation due to a photo and lying about having met Misfud which could be politically damaging.

Priti Patel’s –sacking-- resignation also fits in neatly with the story. The Foreign Office were not informed and there is the curious side story that May DID know various details but told Patel to keep quiet, so not to embarrass the FCO. Or more to the point, be seen to be undermining Johnson.

Whether this is true or not we don’t know. It does have implications if its true, but it also says something if its not too. Why leak the story at all? Once again its about the Johnson v May dynamic.

As it stands, if Gove and Johnson have been leading May then why would they decide to ditch her and go for power without her?
Notably Gove has the best satisfaction scores of the Cabinet amongst Tories on Conservative Home too. He has had a lot of favourable comments over his statements over pesticides. The pair seem to have put differences aside and are working together. And May has become more and more of a liability. Johnson, also came second favourite to be Tory leader amongst Tories (if you discount don’t knows and none of the aboves). Maybe they fancy their chances…

Or it’s a last ditch attempt to cling on to that power as threats that Johnson might finally get the boot – if Zagheri-Ratcliffe does have her sentence extended and Johnson’s position is no longer tenable for even May’s self-preservation. Whilst much has been framed about it being about May’s political survival, its definitely not just her whose future is in doubt. Who was the ‘dead wood’, that young Tories demanded be ditched in a reshuffle to bring in young blood? Either way, Gove has firmly hitched his wagon to Johnson's effectively repeating Johnson's dismissal of Zagheri-Ratcliffe's case.

Anyway another week and another set of high political drama is a foregone conclusion.

A round up of other developments this week:

Tory Party / Government

  1. May announces intention to enshrine Brexit leaving date in law to force rebels to tow the line. This has many implications, not least tax related and putting more pressure on the UK government. It’s generally regarded as a desperate move by anyone sane.
  2. The Impact Assessments were a dogs dinner that was done at the last minute, and were not worth the paper they were written on. There was no detail to them.
  3. Priti Patel’s –sacking—resignation after having undocumented and unauthorised meetings with a series of Israel ministers. And then lying about it.
  4. Penny Mordaunt, who lied about the UK not having a veto to stop Turkey joining the EU, replaced Patel.
  5. Damien Green Porn. Another ex-policeman is backing the story that it was found on his computer despite Green’s denials.
  6. The ongoing Zagheri-Ratcliffe story with Iran and Johnson’s gaff and none apology
  7. Photograph of Johnson with ‘The Professor’ Misfud has been found. This links Johnson to how events in the US might pan out. If there are lots more revelations in the Mueller inquiry about him, then that might reflect on Johnson and make him subject to some difficult questions. Politically this might be problematic for Johnson.
  8. Claims that the whips office leaked the name of someone who reported allegations against Nigel Evans which occurred 6 months after Evans had been cleared of rape and the sexual assault of six men
  9. Suspended Tory MP Charlie Elphicke has complained that he is yet to be informed of what he has been accused of.
  10. Young Tory MPs issue threat to May that she brings in young blood and gets rid of ‘dead wood, who do nothing but screw up’. Give her until the New Year to do so.
  11. 40 Tories apparently ready to no confidence May.
  12. Lord Ashcroft’s latest poll reveals a very small percentage of people want a no deal situation despite all the noise of it being a good idea.
  13. Lord Ashcroft mentioned in the Paradise papers. Reported as domiciled in Belize despite assurances given to parliament that he would give up his non-dom status and pay tax in the UK as a Lord.

Parliament / Opposition both inside and outside parliament
14) May facing a possible revolt over Universal Credit. MPs due to vote on reducing wait times.
15) Talk that there are enough Tory Rebels prepared to back a Dominic Grieve amendment to force a meaningful vote on the Brexit Deal.
16) May under increasing pressure from business leaders to make a deal after a meeting with them at no. 10.
17) Lots of distraction in the Paradise Papers generally which raises the question over the power and influence of the super rich versus the poor. This plays well to Labour’s narrative and against the idea of a low tax post Brexit Britain.
18) Lord Kerr, author of the a50 clause states that May has misled the public and insists that it is reversible.
19) New Money Laundering and Sanctions Bill in the Lords. Government looking to omit 4th EU directive on tax avoidance. Naturally raises questions about whether UK would adopt new rules due to come into force the week after Brexit Day.
20) Money Laundering Bill also has lots of overlap with immigration and home office operations, raising some rather sinister questions over who could be affected and why. Potential for abuse seems to be huge.
21) Leave leaning Cornwall and Grimsby seeking special status in the face of Brexit – in line with remaining to preserve business / economic interests
22) Suicide of Welsh Assembly Labour member who was under investigation for sexual harassment
23) A Labour MP accuses the already suspended fellow Labour MP Kelvin Hopkins of inappropriate behaviour.

EU
24) Ireland demands the UK stays in the customs union.
25) Brexit talks have not progressed at all despite apparently being speeded up. Barnier saying that progress in December only possible if UK makes moves on the settlement deal. Prospect of stage two being delayed until March being raised. This leaves just 7 months to come to a deal, which plays to the No Deal Crowd’s interests.
26) EU believe the UK are not working in the best interests of the UK and there is a failure by May and Davis to understand the process or what No Deal will mean.
27) EU signalling that there is no bespoke transition. Only available options ae EEA or EFTA fudges.
28) Increasing view in Brussels that No Deal likely. EU think May hasn’t got the authority to come to a deal and its easier for her to drag UK off the cliff. Though they have doubts she will survive much longer.

World
29) Trump sides with Putin above the US Intelligence Community over the Russian election interference. On Veterans Day.
30) US’s Wilbur Ross said UK will have to dump European food safety standards and that losing our passporting rights to the EU would harm our interests with the US.
31) Developments in Lebanon, with it being said that Saudi Arabia said to have declared war. Many would consider this to be a proxy war against Iran. Crown Prince has purged political opponents including several with significant Wall Street interests. Eight died in a helicopter crash.
32) Large scale far right march in Poland as part of their Independence Day.

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50
thecatfromjapan · 13/11/2017 22:22

I think we're fucked too.

I also see no signs, at all, that MPs aren't going to roll over and accept this. Which is, frankly, almost incredible. Breathtaking, really.

Redwood should be a big story, a huge story. That's a Brexiteer telling people the UK is fucked. The delusional dreams of the Brexiters who bother fantasising on MN, at least, are based on the idea that the UK is going to build an alternative economy within its shores. That is not possible without massive amounts of finance. Mr Brexiteer Redwood telling investors not to invest in the UK tells us a. a time of crisis is6 coming and b. that financed resurgence of national industry is not^ going to happen.

And meanwhile, in Parliament, the catastrophe rolls forward, with MPs inertly and apathetically watching on.

The situation is, frankly, inconceivable.

ElenaGreco123 · 13/11/2017 22:27

We will totally be in this together, as I can't see how savings (on our modest level) will help us when the shit hits the fan and the pound is worthless.

mrsreynolds · 13/11/2017 22:31

It's scary
Really scary
The architects of brexit will simply leave....they will have the means to do so

mrsreynolds · 13/11/2017 22:33

My biggest issue atm is convincing dh of the danger
He's utterly oblivious

woman11017 · 13/11/2017 22:33

@carolecadwalla
Something v. strange going on..
Last week: Boris - ZERO evidence of Russian interference
Tonight: PM - the Russians interfered.
????
AND NOT A SINGLE MENTION OF BREXIT

woman11017 · 13/11/2017 22:35

DM and DT are running on Russian interference. Is some sort of narrative being set up?

woman11017 · 13/11/2017 22:44

@davidallengreen
"MPs in the House of Commons audibly gasped"
Let's unpack this.

1/The UK will leave the EU on 29 March 2019 by automatic operation of law.

This is the default position - and this is what will happen unless something exceptional happens.

2/There are three broad exceptions to the UK leaving the EU on 29 March 2019.

None of which are currently likely.

3/First: the UK and EU can agree an extension.

UK stays a full member oof EU until an agreed date after March 2019.

4/ Second: an alternative date can be agreed as part of an overall exit deal. This, however, requires the deal to be in place before March 2019.

5/Third: Article 50 is revoked (or somehow paused).

This is (probably) legally possible as long as UK is acting in good faith (rather than as a negotiation ploy to re-start clock).

6/Now look at three options - and the one thing they have in common.

All three are outside the direct control of the UK parliament.

Parliament cannot now vote directly to keep us in EU.

Too late: Article 50 has been triggered.

7The best parliament can do is to mandate the UK government to request to the EU that Article 50 is revoked (or suspended).

But it is a matter for the EU whether that would be accepted. Parliamentary vote, by itself, does not trump Article 50.

8/That said: if UK is sincere then likely that EU will accept the revocation.

But that cannot be guaranteed. It would not flow directly from the parliamentary vote.

A parliamentary vote could also be ignored. This is not a fanciful risk.

9/And so: back to the "audible gasp".

Yes: UK would be out of the EU without a deal if a deal is voted down by parliament, because that is how Article 50 will work.

10/This outcome is indeed gasp-worthy. It even warrants hyperventilation. It is terrifying.

But: MPs should not be surprised. This is the natural and direct consequence of voting for the A50 notification.

11/If MPs are now gasping at the prospect of the UK leaving the EU without a deal, automatically on 29 March 2019, then they did not understand what they were voting for.

12/This is the default position - not inevitable because of the three exceptions - but a firm presumption unless something exceptional happens.

13/Ans so, this is what today's concession, while welcome, is not enough.

Parliament should assert the power to be able to instruct HMG to ask EU for A50 to be revoked/suspended if there is no deal.

14/This will not mean that HMG has to make such a request. Nor does it guarantee EU will accept such a request.

But it means that the only relevant exception can apply, when it otherwise would not.

15/We are still in the early days of the Bill's passage.

Still can be amended further by MPs. Also by Lords.

Do not be surprised if such an amendment is passed.

16
It is never too late to do the right thing.

The "audible gasp" may mean MPs now realise the gravity of what they have done in triggering A50. If so, it is to be welcomed.

Even though they should have known better.

/end

Cailleach1 · 13/11/2017 23:31

and jeremy corbyn put a three line whip on labour to vote to trigger a50. he'll be receiving a lot more letters from people who will feel the full brunt of things to come. and he will have been an stooge accomplice to making it happen. no pretending otherwise.

OlennasWimple · 14/11/2017 01:55

Here's a terrifying thought: Venezuala is liable to go bankrupt in 48 hours, which could potentially trigger a global financial crisis Shock

The scary stuff is in the details, including that PDVSA (the state owned oil company) hasn't made a debt payment to India for six months, even though it had previously been using a Russian state-owned bank as an intermediary to make the payments. This means that the Indian company is owed $540m by Venezuela. Venezuela also owes Russia $3bn for previously agreed debt; the international banks have stopped or heavily reduced lines of credit available to Venezuela; so the only realistic way out is for Russia to agree to re-structure the debt

Shock Sad

All roads lead back to Moscow

thecatfromjapan · 14/11/2017 05:04

Yes, Cailleach . I've woken up and found myself unable to get back to sleep thinking about yesterday in Parliament and my mind keeps going back to that three-line whip. Angry

mathanxiety · 14/11/2017 06:13

Bigly
Surely he is retoxifying his brand with his suddenly Boris love in...

No, Gove and Boris are counting on the normalising of the toxicity, the knife to the back/ kiss and make up/ "all's fair in love and war" cycle.

UK politics is now a case of life imitating art. They are inspired by Francis Urquhart, but this being messy real life, it is less Shakespearean and more Barnum & Baileys. It's debased no matter what.

mathanxiety · 14/11/2017 06:15

RTB, wrt stamp duty only helping those in the south in a meaningful way - that is where the Tory vote is.

Maybe they have given up on the north, which will be a blighted hellhole after March next year.

mathanxiety · 14/11/2017 06:46

DM and DT are running on Russian interference. Is some sort of narrative being set up?

Of course there is.
"Whoops! Referendum invalid. The Russians engineered it."
It's the granddaddy of all get out of jail cards.
However:
"The GE results stand. We won that fair and square."

It's the same problem the GOP faces in the US with the inquiry into 'Russian interference'. They profess not to like the alleged interference but they love the results. They will go full on nuclear on Russia if they suffer a rout in the 2018 midterms, and Trump will be deposed at that point too.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/11/2017 07:09

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

HesterThrale · 14/11/2017 07:14

Dominic Grieve speaks his mind about the Govt plan to set the exit date in law:

"He told Sky News: “The amendment being tabled by the Government saying there is a day on which we have got to go, which seems to reduce the Government’s flexibility in its negotiations … is an incoherent and thoroughly stupid amendment and it won’t have my support."

Grieve and his likeminded colleagues need to put their money where their mouth is, and start rebelling in votes on a regular basis.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-date-time-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-bill-law-dominic-grieve-tory-rebel-minister-henry-viii-a8052076.html%3famp

thecatfromjapan · 14/11/2017 07:21

I agree with you Hester.

That 'audible gasp' has annoyed me beyond measure.

The only possible explanation is that a lot of MPs didn't think enough about the consequences of the vote on A50, and basically absolved themselves of responsibility through a mass vote.

And I think they will continue to do that without pressure to act otherwise.

It really is time - and some - for MPs to rebel.

mrsreynolds · 14/11/2017 07:27

Me too
I'm livid at those idiots
What - exactly - did thry think they were voting for??

TheNumberfaker · 14/11/2017 07:42

I think Mother's point is spot on. Politicians need to step up their game and really think about consequences for the country and not just their own political career.

Peregrina · 14/11/2017 08:22

Notice how today's big story is Russian interference (what did I tell you?) and not that David Davis wants to engineer the vote so that we crash out of the EU with no deal, but Parliament gets the blame?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/11/2017 08:31

Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
There is a lot of head scratching going on about govt strategy and it goes beyond usual suspects - senior Tory says 'i don't understand what they are doing - the only meaningful vote would be a vote of no confidence in the govt'

woman11017 · 14/11/2017 08:37

@tnewtondunn
Likely that the EU (Withdrawal) Bill will be amended to include the below. Govt just don't have the numbers to stop it. Brussels is already effectively negotiating with Commons, not HMG.Tom Newton Dunn added,

@davidallengreen
Ans so, this is what today's concession, while welcome, is not enough.
Parliament should assert the power to be able to instruct HMG to ask EU for A50 to be revoked/suspended if there is no deal.…

'audible gasp' ...........

@MrBrendanCox
Being ill is rubbish. Being ill when you are single parent is even worse. Urgh.

Sad

Hope an incitement charge is being prepared against you know who's.

LurkingHusband · 14/11/2017 08:40

Curiously, listening to R4 (through gritted ears), they messed up, and allowed Michael Bloomburg to say that "Bexit was a dumb move". Although that was probably lost in the echo of them climbing up his arse to give him nearly a minute to say that London is a big city in Europe.

RedToothBrush · 14/11/2017 08:56

Why is the PM saying Russia now?

Well yes it's the Brexit get out clause.

Also we don't know how the Mueller inquiry is going to unravel yet. The UK is highly involved in it - and exposed to it - from an intelligence point of view and from a political point of view. We know this because of the Steele Dossier and because of the relationship between Banks/Farage and Trump with Brexit.

We know that GCHQ know stuff about Trump and the investigation and were on to

Papadopoulos early in 2016. If that's the case why on earth was Johnson meeting the professor three weeks ago?

I actually think it quite possible that Johnson is totally innocent here and oblivious to it all. Indeed there is also the possibility that he would need to continue any previous contact if an individual was under investigation in order to protect it.

Mueller's investigation could also gives us good reason to distance ourselves from Trump's America. And for May to backtrack on hand holding. Easy to argue the case about keeping enemies close as a political spin if ultimately needed.

I don't want to set up a conspiracy theory here but the Patel incident has me pondering things.

Just how much is Johnson being cut out from information? I stress I don't mean because of Russia here - I think its more general than that.

It probably is more about the personal relationship between May and Johnson.

And within the FCO a fear about Johnson's lack of tact and big mouth. They hated the appointment from the word go.

His numerous foot in mouth incidents have led to a situation where there is a feeling that Johnson needs to 'be managed' which in turn makes the situation worse as it affects his ability to do his job well too.

Question re: Iran. Was Johnson briefed by the FCO about Nazarin? I wonder whether the initial gaff was precisely because he wasn't. And the subsequent non-politically in part because he felt miffed that he wasn't. Why should he apologise for something he feels was not his fault type petulance?

The Patel incident and the Nazarin incident are not the only examples of Johnson being placed firmly outside the loop.

When May appointed Johnson she immediately reduced his role with the creation of the Brexit Department and the International Trade Department. There have been feuds over territory between the three. There has been mutual undermining between Johnson and May but at the centre of that. This has been blamed on Johnson's ambition but there has also been a quiet complaint that May didn't share her strategy for just about anything before the election outside no 10 leaving ministers exposed to journalists and having to say something in the absence of a wider cabinet agreed position.

People have speculated that Johnson has been trying to get himself sacked too. Again if that was true you'd leave Johnson out of certain info. If it's not true, then being left out of the loop would also provide an alternative explanation to his incompetence (in addition to being an overly ambitious cunt who is only interested in himself). Johnson might be a reprehensible, workshy prick but he is also intelligent too. Appearing as incompetent as he is, isn't a good look and undermines his ambition ultimately. He will know this.

He also can't admit that he is being left in the dark by his own department or the PM as that reflects badly on him too.

May can not sack Johnson because she fears him. To eliminate him as a political rival once and for all would need something really significant.

If Russia is really the Brexit get out clause then Johnson has to go with it. Don't be surprised if Johnson is pushed under this bus, if it does comes along.

The whole dynamic of the Johnson and May's relationship lies at the heart of Brexit. Both can not survive it politically. I also can't see them willingly allowing the other to survive either.

It's a desperate situation. The Russia story is an opportunity for the desperate.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 14/11/2017 08:58

Kenneth Clarke MP @ thekenclarkemp
Several remain voting MPs looked like they had been told the Easter Bunny doesn’t exist in Parliament this evening, yet all of them voted for Article 50 (unlike myself). Brexit is not a weapon they can bash the government with, then simply end when they see fit. This is serious.

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RedToothBrush · 14/11/2017 09:02

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/13/eu-business-leaders-tell-pm-agree-brexit-deal-or-face-collapse-in-confidence
EU business leaders tell PM: agree Brexit deal or face collapse in confidence
Delegation of 14 senior business figures calls for ‘concrete clear’ proposals during meeting with ministers at No 10

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