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Brexit

Westministenders: The Tory Civil War – The Knives Are Out Again. A Big Battle Looms.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2017 13:56

Today has seen the publication of a story about how Johnson and Gove are holding May hostage in a ‘soft coup’ and have made various demands over what they want for a hard Brexit. The letter which was for May’s and Barwell’s eyes only has some how leaked. Don’t forget how Gove has just joined the Brexit Cabinet.

It comes at a time, when the Observer is also leading with an editorial demanding Johnson goes over his handling of the Nazarin Zagheri-Ratcliffe case as well as his long list of poorly judged comments which have had diplomatic consequences and another newspaper is leading with a story about how 40 Tories are ready to no-confidence May.

It all smacks of a personal battle between May and Johnson to govern the party, which has been playing out publicly for some time, most noticeable in the parallel Tory party conference leadership speeches and Johnson’s freelancing.

Johnson also seems to be potentially caught up, with what happens in the Mueller investigation due to a photo and lying about having met Misfud which could be politically damaging.

Priti Patel’s –sacking-- resignation also fits in neatly with the story. The Foreign Office were not informed and there is the curious side story that May DID know various details but told Patel to keep quiet, so not to embarrass the FCO. Or more to the point, be seen to be undermining Johnson.

Whether this is true or not we don’t know. It does have implications if its true, but it also says something if its not too. Why leak the story at all? Once again its about the Johnson v May dynamic.

As it stands, if Gove and Johnson have been leading May then why would they decide to ditch her and go for power without her?
Notably Gove has the best satisfaction scores of the Cabinet amongst Tories on Conservative Home too. He has had a lot of favourable comments over his statements over pesticides. The pair seem to have put differences aside and are working together. And May has become more and more of a liability. Johnson, also came second favourite to be Tory leader amongst Tories (if you discount don’t knows and none of the aboves). Maybe they fancy their chances…

Or it’s a last ditch attempt to cling on to that power as threats that Johnson might finally get the boot – if Zagheri-Ratcliffe does have her sentence extended and Johnson’s position is no longer tenable for even May’s self-preservation. Whilst much has been framed about it being about May’s political survival, its definitely not just her whose future is in doubt. Who was the ‘dead wood’, that young Tories demanded be ditched in a reshuffle to bring in young blood? Either way, Gove has firmly hitched his wagon to Johnson's effectively repeating Johnson's dismissal of Zagheri-Ratcliffe's case.

Anyway another week and another set of high political drama is a foregone conclusion.

A round up of other developments this week:

Tory Party / Government

  1. May announces intention to enshrine Brexit leaving date in law to force rebels to tow the line. This has many implications, not least tax related and putting more pressure on the UK government. It’s generally regarded as a desperate move by anyone sane.
  2. The Impact Assessments were a dogs dinner that was done at the last minute, and were not worth the paper they were written on. There was no detail to them.
  3. Priti Patel’s –sacking—resignation after having undocumented and unauthorised meetings with a series of Israel ministers. And then lying about it.
  4. Penny Mordaunt, who lied about the UK not having a veto to stop Turkey joining the EU, replaced Patel.
  5. Damien Green Porn. Another ex-policeman is backing the story that it was found on his computer despite Green’s denials.
  6. The ongoing Zagheri-Ratcliffe story with Iran and Johnson’s gaff and none apology
  7. Photograph of Johnson with ‘The Professor’ Misfud has been found. This links Johnson to how events in the US might pan out. If there are lots more revelations in the Mueller inquiry about him, then that might reflect on Johnson and make him subject to some difficult questions. Politically this might be problematic for Johnson.
  8. Claims that the whips office leaked the name of someone who reported allegations against Nigel Evans which occurred 6 months after Evans had been cleared of rape and the sexual assault of six men
  9. Suspended Tory MP Charlie Elphicke has complained that he is yet to be informed of what he has been accused of.
  10. Young Tory MPs issue threat to May that she brings in young blood and gets rid of ‘dead wood, who do nothing but screw up’. Give her until the New Year to do so.
  11. 40 Tories apparently ready to no confidence May.
  12. Lord Ashcroft’s latest poll reveals a very small percentage of people want a no deal situation despite all the noise of it being a good idea.
  13. Lord Ashcroft mentioned in the Paradise papers. Reported as domiciled in Belize despite assurances given to parliament that he would give up his non-dom status and pay tax in the UK as a Lord.

Parliament / Opposition both inside and outside parliament
14) May facing a possible revolt over Universal Credit. MPs due to vote on reducing wait times.
15) Talk that there are enough Tory Rebels prepared to back a Dominic Grieve amendment to force a meaningful vote on the Brexit Deal.
16) May under increasing pressure from business leaders to make a deal after a meeting with them at no. 10.
17) Lots of distraction in the Paradise Papers generally which raises the question over the power and influence of the super rich versus the poor. This plays well to Labour’s narrative and against the idea of a low tax post Brexit Britain.
18) Lord Kerr, author of the a50 clause states that May has misled the public and insists that it is reversible.
19) New Money Laundering and Sanctions Bill in the Lords. Government looking to omit 4th EU directive on tax avoidance. Naturally raises questions about whether UK would adopt new rules due to come into force the week after Brexit Day.
20) Money Laundering Bill also has lots of overlap with immigration and home office operations, raising some rather sinister questions over who could be affected and why. Potential for abuse seems to be huge.
21) Leave leaning Cornwall and Grimsby seeking special status in the face of Brexit – in line with remaining to preserve business / economic interests
22) Suicide of Welsh Assembly Labour member who was under investigation for sexual harassment
23) A Labour MP accuses the already suspended fellow Labour MP Kelvin Hopkins of inappropriate behaviour.

EU
24) Ireland demands the UK stays in the customs union.
25) Brexit talks have not progressed at all despite apparently being speeded up. Barnier saying that progress in December only possible if UK makes moves on the settlement deal. Prospect of stage two being delayed until March being raised. This leaves just 7 months to come to a deal, which plays to the No Deal Crowd’s interests.
26) EU believe the UK are not working in the best interests of the UK and there is a failure by May and Davis to understand the process or what No Deal will mean.
27) EU signalling that there is no bespoke transition. Only available options ae EEA or EFTA fudges.
28) Increasing view in Brussels that No Deal likely. EU think May hasn’t got the authority to come to a deal and its easier for her to drag UK off the cliff. Though they have doubts she will survive much longer.

World
29) Trump sides with Putin above the US Intelligence Community over the Russian election interference. On Veterans Day.
30) US’s Wilbur Ross said UK will have to dump European food safety standards and that losing our passporting rights to the EU would harm our interests with the US.
31) Developments in Lebanon, with it being said that Saudi Arabia said to have declared war. Many would consider this to be a proxy war against Iran. Crown Prince has purged political opponents including several with significant Wall Street interests. Eight died in a helicopter crash.
32) Large scale far right march in Poland as part of their Independence Day.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2017 11:46

No German politician - except maybe some of Farage's fascist AD friends - has the slightest interest in using up their personal political capital to help the UK out of a self-inflicted mess

No way they want to waste time on the UK atm.
So that probably means an automatic veto on any concessions to the UK, at least until there is a stale German govt

Merkel is slightly less hostile than other German pols
The FDP and SPD are furious at the UK - or at least their leaders sounded exasperated on the maybe one occasion in the last year that I heard comments from them about Brexit.
The Greens I don't know about.

Peregrina · 20/11/2017 11:49

I think a majority could live with an EEA solution. But it wouldn't satisfy those who want to restrict FoM, even though we are constantly assured on MN by Leavers that immigration is not the issue. We could introduce the rules about removing people without work, which no PM from Blair onwards has bothered to tackle.

lalalonglegs · 20/11/2017 11:50

Pointless as it would be to end up in EFTA-style arrangement (all the regulations of the EU with none of the benefits of a say in policy) it is a compromise that many Remainers and (soft) Leavers could live with. We/they many not like it but we would probably lump it to avoid a cliff-edge. And it seems a sensible position for the foreseeable future. I can't believe that we won't end up there in the end - the sabre-rattling for a, ahem, "clean" brexit seems increasingly hollow.

*woman" - that ad asks whether you think TM should sack Anna Soubry. As AS isn't a minister, surely TM can't sack her (could possibly withdraw the whip which she wouldn't dare to do) as it's only her constituency that can do that. It just shows the (wilful) ignorance of the people behind these campaigns.

lonelyplanetmum · 20/11/2017 11:50

unrealistic to expect that the EU will change enough before March 2019 for the Uk public to want to stay in.
The only thing that might change UK public opinion is if major economic effects of Brexit are felt sufficiently early

But if we had a sensible government, if an obvious wind of change starting to blow that should be enough to say " Hang on let's wait, let's withdraw our stupid notification,let's give it until 2025 to see what happens with the EU."

Meanwhile, we could do some contingency planning,like, I don't know, being less reliant on the City and thinking about what kind of manufacturing we could pursue?

LurkingHusband · 20/11/2017 11:53

We could introduce the rules about removing people without work, which no PM from Blair onwards has bothered to tackle.

cui bono ?

Having lots of unemployed people in the UK is every employers dream. It's a brilliant way to keep wages down, and the untermensch in their place.

If the UK actually enforced the EU rules about removing non-employed citizens, they might suddenly find they have to up wages and conditions.

And that would never do.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2017 11:54

Changes to EU immigration/ refugee policy will be entirely to dampen down the far right political vote.
These changes will NOT be to restrict E27 FOM as most UK Leavers want

  • that would in fact worsen the situation, because the far right in former Eastern bloc countries would increase teir support if their citizens were restricted from FOM
LurkingHusband · 20/11/2017 11:56

Meanwhile, we could do some contingency planning,like, I don't know, being less reliant on the City and thinking about what kind of manufacturing we could pursue?

You mean reverse 4 decades of decline in less than a year ? You'd have to start by reversing the disdain the average person in the street has for any hint of learning and education, which is a generational shift at the very least.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2017 11:59

Plans to increase UK manufacturing significantly would take decades and even then probably wouldn't work
It would also require a level of state control that even Labour never dreamt of - not going to happen under a Tory govt, let alone this govt which seems driven by Legatum

BigChocFrenzy · 20/11/2017 12:12

On (appropriately) 1 April 2019, imo these are the possible alternate situations the UK will be in:

+EEA / EFTA - if those members would still accept such a troublemaker
+or no deal / WTO terms - followed soon by economic collapse and also possibly Irish Troubles returning to London
+or a "transition", really an extension to give time for both sides to build infrastructure for WTO (the UK probably can't, in under 5 years)

  • or Remain - a small chance, but the HoC might bring down May and force this at the last moment.

The govt is hoping for Canada +++, but would only get Canada Dry - problem is, negotiations would take years after Brexit
and a Canada-type deal would be a massive blow to the economy - so would any other deal short of EEA/EFTA

Mistigri · 20/11/2017 12:17

If the UK actually enforced the EU rules about removing non-employed citizens, they might suddenly find they have to up wages and conditions.

I find it incredibly depressing to see this sort of rubbish being spouted by remainers.

You can't deport EU citizens for being unemployed. Under some circumstances (if they are not seeking work and have no other means of establishing a right to reside under FOM) you might be able to deny them social benefits. But you can only "remove" them - ie deport - in a narrow range of "public interest" situations e.g. criminality. This is why the government have effectively criminalised homelessness in order to remove homeless Eastern Europeans.

lonelyplanetmum · 20/11/2017 12:29

You mean reverse 4 decades of decline in less than a year ?

I'm not saying I want to revive manufacturing in 12 months LH. I'm looking for a delay and a plan B.

What I'm saying is that if Germany's coalition issues are the start of an EU wind of change starting to blow, then a sensible government would say look let's postpone the UKs exit until say, 2025.

That would involve working within the EU in that time, and seeing what can be achieved from within, meanwhile there could do some contingency planning too.

I don't know what contingency planning would entail but it should involve trying some things to appease leavers and redress imbalances.

1.i don't see how we can compete with Asian manufacturing, the decline here was due to our success and general globalisation not the EU.But whenever I speak to a Leaver, they often speak nostalgically of manufacturing. So an attempt to do something there would be an attempt at compromise.

  1. I know it's been said so many times before but another sop would be to have the same immigration system every other EU country does. Registration with the town hall ( so local authority?) within 3 months of arrival with proof of identity, accommodation, job, means of support etc. I know there's only evidence EU immigration is a benefit but I'm looking for compromises.

It's just so absurd we had the referendum and acted on it without any meaningful attempt at anything else at all first.David Cameron's attempts to try and negotiate changes in our EU relationship were too quick and perfunctory.

I still cling to straws of hope which can only be to delay and attempt appeasing measures...

OliviaD68 · 20/11/2017 12:31

@BigChocFrenzy

Agree with your last post.

Question: what are downsides of EEA relative to EU membership? Have you looked into that? I have not yet.

Mistigri · 20/11/2017 12:39

the same immigration system every other EU country does.

They don't all have the same system. In France systematic registration of EU migrants ceased in around 2004. Until recently (i.e. post referendum) it as almost impossible to register, because there was no need to so, and the authorities didn't want to process the paperwork.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2017 12:42

Food&Farming Futures‏*@FarmingFutures*
Basic payments will be worth 25% more on average this year, compared to 2015
www.gov.uk/government/news/farmers-set-for-increased-payments-as-the-rural-payments-agency-confirms-bps-2017-entitlement-and-greening-rates
@defragov

Samuel Lowe‏*@SamuelMarcLowe*
If you ever wonder why farmers aren't already rising up in arms over Brexit: CAP payments priced in Euros. Weak pound = ££££s

Worth noting...

OP posts:
HashiAsLarry · 20/11/2017 12:48

misti
Whilst not every eu country has the same rules, according to fact checkers we do here.

As things stand, EU citizens who come to the UK to find work cannot claim jobseeker's allowance during their first three months in the country.
After that they can claim for a total of 91 days, which can be split across several periods of jobseeking. They can continue claiming beyond that period if they can demonstrate that they are actively looking for a job and are likely to get it.
After a total of six months they can be removed if they still have not found a job, and have no realistic possibility of finding one, and require support from the welfare system.
These rules have been in place since early 2014, and are in line with existing EU legislation.

This is very much in line with some other countries. I have a family member who had to leave Finland a few times as they were unable to get a job until their last go. Though our press chooses to focus on the eu rather than our government using our own rules. But I guess we don't because given appeals etc it's probably more cost effective not to do so.

HashiAsLarry · 20/11/2017 12:53

I have to say also, that despite the perception of the sponging forriner that gets peddled, I'm not really sure how many there are that are genuinely relying on the state and aren't actually seeking work but using the benefits system when required as they're being allowed to do by our government's choice.

I suspect the figures are fairly low.

LurkingHusband · 20/11/2017 13:16

I have to say also, that despite the perception of the sponging forriner that gets peddled, I'm not really sure how many there are that are genuinely relying on the state and aren't actually seeking work but using the benefits system when required as they're being allowed to do by our government's choice. I suspect the figures are fairly low.

To be honest, it's immaterial. It's one of those factors that can be ignored when working out the grand scale of things because it's infinitesimal when you look at "losses due to tax avoidance by multinationals". It's a figure that would probably cost more to collate than it's cost to the state.

This is the land of doublethink ....

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 20/11/2017 13:27

dpa international‏
@dpa_intl

#BREAKING: Germany's Social Democrats have rejected a new coalition with Angela Merkel conservatives; call for fresh elections.

woman11017 · 20/11/2017 13:29

Oh dear.

HashiAsLarry · 20/11/2017 13:30

Indeed lh, much like 'health tourism'.

Mistigri · 20/11/2017 13:43

As things stand, EU citizens who come to the UK to find work cannot claim jobseeker's allowance during their first three months in the country.
After that they can claim for a total of 91 days, which can be split across several periods of jobseeking. They can continue claiming beyond that period if they can demonstrate that they are actively looking for a job and are likely to get it.
After a total of six months they can be removed if they still have not found a job, and have no realistic possibility of finding one, and require support from the welfare system.
These rules have been in place since early 2014, and are in line with existing EU legislation.

Yes. This is not the same thing as just sending people home for being unemployed. For a start, quite apart from the conditions above, the unemployed EU citizen may well have a right to remain based on a family member's right (e.g. spouses or dependents of UK or EU citizens) or because they themselves have previously acquired rights (eg 5 years' residence).

There is a right for the state to remove EU citizens in a narrow range of circumstances, but it's rather a high bar and in practice in the UK it's limited to the removal of homeless vulnerable people who are unlikely to be able to document or defend their rights (I'd add that the legality of these removals is being contested).

MyWillowisBack · 20/11/2017 13:44

That's a worrying development in Germany.

On the one hand it's a mature decision to not have a large coalition if the parties will have to compromise to the point of letting their voters down (à la libdems & tuition fees).

On the other hand this is a clear sign that we have entered a new age / era where traditional political identities don't work as well as they did in the past.

One final thought, if Russia was involved in the success of AFD either through social network and tuning operation or their involvement in Syria and the refuge crisis then they have actually managed to destabilise Germany.

For some reason though I have more faith in German politicians than British ones. They seem on the whole more honest and competent.

MyWillowisBack · 20/11/2017 13:45

*Tuning operation = funding operations

HashiAsLarry · 20/11/2017 14:01

misti not solely for unemployment no but also it's more than just the high range you first mentioned. Whether it's done or done easily or at low cost is a different matter. It doesnt help to claim it's that simple nor more complex than what it is.

Mistigri · 20/11/2017 14:02

@jonworth on twitter is a good source of English language comment on German politics, if your German isn't good enough to read local commentators. OK so he's not neutral (Green councillor) but his commentary seems reliable and objective. His view seems to be that this is not a catastrophe, that it's not the end of the road for Merkel and that it has pretty much no impact on Brexit.

^Things take time in German politics.

People do not panic.

There is nothing impossible to solve here.

So please refrain from excessive descriptions of what will happen or not happen now.^

7/7