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Brexit

Westminstenders: Sucking up to the 'enemy'

979 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2017 18:09

Phil Hammond called the EU the enemy. Then retracted it. A classic political move, to pitch to one group and then say you didn't mean it after all.

This is the UK's negotiation strategy. Because the negotiation isn't really with the EU. Its the ongoing debate over the what leaving the EU actually means since it wasn't officially defined prior to the referendum and has been left to politicians to say its one thing to persuade people to support them and then decided no that's not really what they meant after all.

The whole thing makes it impossible for the EU to respond to us, because we don't appear to know what we want.

The EU have been explicit in their position. So things they can not do because of the limitations of trade rules and EU law. Its possible work arounds could be possible for some things - but certainly not all which too many Brexiteers fail to acknowledge.

And then there is the a50 deadline which is like a snake coiled around May's neck slowly strangling her. A self imposed screwing of our negotiating position. One that kills off our Brexit options and ups the stakes into a brinkmanship battle - not with the EU but between the hardlines and the sane. Its not even about remaining, though that option might well end up being the only option left on the table through our own folly, rather than out of EU malice.

The longer we take to work out what we want the higher the stake become and the more we destroy the foundations of our economy in the meantime, even if we do stay in.

We have only just noticed that we've lost money worth 25% of our GDP and we have no net assets anymore, when in early 2016 we had significant assets. Project Fear they said was wrong. Well was it?

We are flat broke as a nation.

Then there is the Great Repel Bill. The Bill was supposed to be in the Commons this week. It was delayed a week due to the sheer number of amendments. There are nearly a dozen with enough Tory rebels to make them stick. Including one for parliament to have a meaningful vote on what option we take - including no deal. If parliament rejected this, we would be left in a situation where we sure as hell better hope a50 is reversible or we could end up unlawfully leave the EU by accident!

And the Lords could be fun for the Repel Bill. The Labour whip has vowed to examine every amendment properly even if the commons don't. And they are free and within their rights to do so.

Still May could exit stage left. Or left with egg all over her face as she has to suck up to the 'enemy' for being such a tool for the last 18months, because she hasn't made progress on the negotiations that really matter. The Tory party ones.

Whichever way you cut it, you can be sure on only one thing: it will go to the wire for both. And possibly beyond with an eleventh hour extension to prevent chaos.

There are hints that the public mood might be changing. Not fast enough. Yet. Interest rates? A break in the triple lock? Phil's budget sure will be interesting. Especially as Brexiteers want money to prepare and protect us from a no deal scenario which they also tell us will be just fine and won't be a problem. Bye Bye NHS, don't get flu this winter. As a note once infamously said: 'There's no many left'.

We are Greece. Only worse. And out of pressure and deadlines we alone created. We just haven't realised it. Yet.

And if this doesn't make you cringe and brace yourself in horror:

Danny Kemp‏ @dannyctkemp
May wants to take the floor at EU summit dinner on Thursday to explain Brexit policy to fellow leaders, senior official says

Just remember her party speech and think: What could possibly go wrong...

OP posts:
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woman11017 · 20/10/2017 07:02

My teenage DS pays the equivalent of a small mortgage: £5000 per year to travel on dirty, chaotic, dangerous, frequently delayed, cancelled or broken commuter train into London, on one of the 'better' lines.

It is theft, for benefit of shareholders.

Almost any EU public transport system would be preferable. Ditto health and education services.

TheElementsSong · 20/10/2017 07:51

Theresa May's Facebook letter is an insult to the intelligence of everyone concerned.

And yet, it's being held up as some kind of enormous triumph by Leavers on other threads Smile.

Our final take was that Redwood is channelling the war, so all we need to do is centralise control of food production and distribution

Or, as a Leaver of my personal acquaintance said airily, "Oh well, we'll all just have to eat less."

BigChocFrenzy · 20/10/2017 07:52

I've worked more in Germany than the Uk, so comparing the 2 systems over 30 years

I found the German one much more reliable, few delays and very rare to have a cancellation
BUT, as with everywhere, you are probably at a disadvantage if you don't understand the language, although Frankfurt & other city services now have messages in English too.

UK express trains seem to travel more slowly than German ... and imo than Swiss, Austrian, French ..... that would be why UK business keeps screaming for rail modernisation ?

The MASSIVE difference I notice is in fares - iirc a day ticket around Frankfurt cost me €8-50 - but that's not just German experience:
UK train fares are just outrageous, like another income tax for Londoner commuters especially, but expensive for all
Privatisation turned into a total ripoff; Angry monopoly capitalism is rarely a good idea
JC definitely strikes a popular chord there

Fares add to the grim misery of JAMs
iirc one bloke found the train fare higher between 2 UK cities than if he flew via Berlin.

Motheroffourdragons · 20/10/2017 07:58

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

HashiAsLarry · 20/10/2017 09:02

must Hmm

That's very worrying language.

Motheroffourdragons · 20/10/2017 09:04

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Mistigri · 20/10/2017 09:09

^UK express trains seem to travel more slowly than German ... and imo than Swiss, Austrian, French ..... that would be why UK business keeps screaming for rail modernisation ?

The MASSIVE difference I notice is in fares - iirc a day ticket around Frankfurt cost me €8-50 - but that's not just German experience:^

The UK has no high speed rail lines which makes it an outlier among the major European economies. However while I agree that commuter fares are high, off peak UK fares compare very favourably to other European countries and it is also much easier to find the cheapest ticket. I don't know about Germany but French regional trains are a bit rubbish and the TGV is only marvellous when it actually runs properly which is by no means most of the time. My daughter takes the TGV to Paris regularly and it is on time about once in every five trips. But at least the French are investing in improving services e.g. by extending the TGV network.

HashiAsLarry · 20/10/2017 09:26

I went to Rome a couple of years back and their transport system was very cheap, very efficient but wasn't luxurious. I remembered thinking to myself that I'd take a slightly more run down looking train over a constantly late one any day. I do sometimes feel that the drive for pretty trains is more about making it look like you're getting something for your money.

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2017 09:43

Out of interest exactly who is May talking to over there ?

Because a cursory glance over my European feeds doesn't bring up anything.

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2017 10:08

www.ft.com/content/ef9ba0f0-b40e-11e7-aa26-bb002965bce8

Headline:

Britain confronts tough German line on Brexit

Berlin insists on divorce first approach to negotiations, despite London’s hopes

YESTERDAY by Alex Barker in Brussels and Guy Chazan in Berlin
If things had gone Theresa May’s way, this would have been the week when Brexit negotiations moved decisively ahead, as the EU approved the beginning of crucial talks on transition.

Instead, the British prime minister’s prospects at this week’s EU summit are far less promising, because of a tough Franco-German line on the progress made by the talks so far.

“We hit the wall,” said one senior British official.

While many past EU confrontations featured an Anglo-French fight mediated by the Germans, this time Britain appears to be pitted against a hardline Berlin, with Paris giving little solace to London.

That raises a question for Mrs May’s aides and Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator: why is Germany being so tough on Brexit?

The UK’s expectations were very different when Mrs May gave a set piece speech in Florence in September to try to break the impasse in the Brexit negotiations.

Her team was convinced the offer of payments of €20bn or more would at least be enough to convince the EU to start talks on a transition period. Indeed, Mr Barnier also raised the option with EU ambassadors earlier this month as potentially the best way forward.

But Germany and France have made clear their opposition to such a path — despite the urgency of the issue for the UK.

Several senior diplomats say Berlin has played an important role in rallying EU backing for its divorce-first approach.

In the words of one Elysée adviser, the “absolute requirement” is reaching a divorce settlement before talks about post-2019 relations begin. In substance it falls well short of Britain’s initial expectations.

UK hopes that Angela Merkel might ultimately take a softer line have so far proved misplaced, although nobody rules out the possibility of last-minute dealmaking. One diplomat familiar with recent exchanges between Mrs May and the German chancellor called them “frosty”, particularly over Britain’s financial commitments to the EU.

The impasse is a far cry from the predictions of some Brexiters, who argued that Berlin’s need to preserve UK market access would guide its approach. But the German government has given priority to defending what it sees as the EU’s collective interests, over and above relations with London.

“We can’t make any compromises when the EU’s very existence is at stake,” said Axel Schäfer, head of the Social Democrats’ Brexit task force. “The EU is united on this. We have to defend our existence, the existence of the EU.”

German officials insist the country is still committed to a close relationship with the UK after Brexit. Bloomberg reported this week that the foreign ministry had prepared a draft paper calling for a “comprehensive free-trade accord” with Britain. But the document has reportedly not yet been approved by the chancellery and is still being circulated among ministers. On the sequencing of the talks, Berlin is sticking to its tough position.

Ms Merkel has for some time warned EU leaders that October may be too early to move on Brexit. Other EU diplomats also think France and Germany see no harm in prolonging economic uncertainty that may make UK-based companies move to the continent.

“The Germans are very focused on the money and do not appear too bothered about the impact on British politics of their holding out,” added Charles Grant of the Centre for European Reform, a think-tank. “They are convinced a firm line is in the EU’s interests.”

Even when it comes to a transition, German business groups see little merit in attempting to entice the UK to settle its divorce issues. “You have the impression that the real negotiations are inside the British government, rather than between the UK and EU,” said Joachim Lang, managing director of the BDI, Germany’s leading business body. “And there’s little point in trying to intervene in what is essentially an internal UK debate.”

Officials in Berlin often cite the negotiations between former UK prime minister David Cameron and other European leaders before the Brexit referendum as a cautionary tale. He won some concessions, such as a four-year ban on new migrants being able to claim in-work benefits. But that cut no ice with the hardline Brexiters.

The Germans feel concessions to Mrs May would go the same way.

“The anti-Europe tabloids won’t accept the idea of a transition anyway, because it’s an extension of a regime they don’t like,” said one official.

Pascal Lamy, the former EU commissioner and World Trade Organization director-general, sees Britain still struggling to come to terms with being the junior partner in defining Brexit.

“The fundamental difference between the UK vision of what this is about and the Franco-German view is that the British still think this is a negotiation.” he said. “It is not a negotiation. It is a process to be managed to minimise harm. It involves adjusting.”

“They still seem to believe they can buy something with the money they have to pay,” he added. “The truth is there is nothing to discuss . . . The only question is how much do you owe.”

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2017 10:09

note: that's an Anglophone piece. Not seeing a non-English one jumping out at me (assuming German for Brexit is "Brexit" Hmm)

BiglyBadgers · 20/10/2017 10:14

Where has democracy gone?

I got told the other day that I couldn't criticise someone's decision not to vaccinate their children because "we live in a democracy!". So apparently democracy now means not opposing anything anyone else wants to do no matter how irresponsible and potentially damaging to others. Hmm

HashiAsLarry · 20/10/2017 10:15

Just picked a bit of this up on the news this morning.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/20/brexit-trade-talks-more-complicated-than-first-phase-angela-merkel

More complicated. No way! I thought it was all going to be so easy 🤦‍♀️

TheElementsSong · 20/10/2017 10:20

Bloomberg reported this week that the foreign ministry had prepared a draft paper calling for a “comprehensive free-trade accord” with Britain. But the document has reportedly not yet been approved by the chancellery and is still being circulated among ministers

Somebody ought to tell the Leavers, who are exultant about the Bloomberg report and the certainty of Sunlit Uplands because BMWs.

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2017 10:26

Finally, they release that report ...

Westminstenders: Sucking up to the 'enemy'
thecatfromjapan · 20/10/2017 10:29

I think the trade of car market losses for banking sector must sweeten any possible bitter pill as far as Germany is concerned. Sad

I'm thinking about the £5K per household. I'm assuming that is mainly a rise in food prices plus utilities. I'm guessing it doesn't cover loss of currently free NHS services (I foresee a lot of what is currently free becoming paid-for at least, then moving to then need for private health insurance. I suspect charges for GP visits is on the horizon.) and costs incurred by increased defunding of state education. So I expect the down-the-line costs per household to be far higher.

How on earth are people going to manage an increase of even £5K? Some people are struggling to eat even as things are at the moment. It truly isn't a matter of 'eating less'. I'm baffled as to how people on, say, Universal Credit are going to cope with that.

prettybird · 20/10/2017 10:54

Theresa May still on about "deep and special partnership" in her press conference. Says that EU citizens and their families are still welcome although there are still a few details to be sorted. Also mentions NI and the Belfast agreement needs a special deal. Still on about "imaginative solutions" to sort it Hmm

Apart from that, the only thing she really talked about was the need for security cooperation.

Holliewantstobehot · 20/10/2017 11:09

Everything she said about NI was waffle. Surely everyone would agree with what she said it was just common sense. But no plan on how to deliver it.

RandomlyGenerated · 20/10/2017 11:18

The Treasury report Jo Maugham is quoting appears to be the Treasury forecast document from April 2016 - aka Osborne’s Project Fear. The £5k per year is loss of GDP per household.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517415/treasury_analysis_economic_impact_of_eu_membership_web.pdf

The Centre for Economic Performance at the LSE reviewed the methodology and found it a little cautious if anything though for the FTA case (not sure about the WTO case).

cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit04.pdf

The same topic is another thread just now, and predictably Minford is being used to rubbish it (conveniently ignoring that Minford’s plan would decimate manufacturing, bankrupt farmers and destroy workers rights and environmental regulation).

www.economist.com/news/britain/21727078-patrick-minford-thinks-gdp-could-increase-68-most-economists-say-brexit-will-hurt

prettybird · 20/10/2017 11:19

I agree with you Hollie - only it was suggest that Everything she said about waffle. Surely everyone would agree with what she said it was just common sense. But no plan on how to deliver it.

Not just NI! Wink

Holliewantstobehot · 20/10/2017 11:35

Well yes prettybird that's true. The NI bit really stuck out for me after reading that article on the border linked to upthead.

But the border will be made up of a magic hedge, which dissolves as you step through it if you're good and snarls you in its branches if you're bad. Policed by unicorns and goblins. Is that creative enough do you think?

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2017 11:38

Stephen Bush‏*@stephenkb*

I don’t understand the circumstancss where your staff allow this photo to be taken.

I've seen a few comments that May is now actively using the concept of being 'poor isolated Theresa' as a way to help her with the EU by gaining sympathy in some sort of pity party.

This photo is not helping dispel that idea.

Westminstenders: Sucking up to the 'enemy'
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 20/10/2017 11:38

Peter Foster‏ @pmdfoster
May: I'll take a question from some of our European colleagues?

British voice. "We're all European"

Laughter

OP posts:
Holliewantstobehot · 20/10/2017 11:48

That photo is for the British press. Poor Theresa turning up and being snubbed by the nasty EU. They're so mean to us, it's all their fault brexit isn't working.

Peregrina · 20/10/2017 12:21

Where does it say that?

It's the response to the petition. I am not sure if it's been posted. If not, here it is:

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Put the final Brexit deal to a referendum with revoking Article 50 as an option.”.

Government responded:

On 23 June 2016 the British people voted to leave the European Union. The UK Government is clear that it is now its duty to implement the will of the people and so there will be no second referendum.

On 23 June 2016 the British people voted to leave the European Union. The referendum was the largest democratic mandate in UK political history. In the 2017 General Election more than 85% of people voted for parties committed to respecting that result.

There must be no attempts to remain inside the European Union, no attempts to rejoin it through the back door, and no second referendum. The country voted to leave the European Union, and it is the duty of the Government to make sure we do just that. Rather than second guess that decision, the challenge now is to make a success of it - not just for those who voted leave but for every citizen of the United Kingdom, bringing together everyone in a balanced approach that respects the decision to leave the political structure of the EU but builds a strong relationship between the UK and the EU as neighbours, allies and partners.

Since the referendum, the whole of Government has undertaken a huge work programme to make sure that we begin negotiations from a position of strength. This has included analysis of over 50 sectors of the economy. Ministers have also travelled up and down the country to listen to the hopes and concerns of businesses, civil society and the general public.

Parliament passed an Act with a clear majority giving the Prime Minister the power to trigger Article 50, which she did on 29 March in a letter to the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk.

In her speech in Florence on Friday 22 September, the Prime Minister set out a creative and pragmatic approach to securing a new, deep and special partnership with the European Union. The speech set the tone for the fourth and fifth rounds of negotiation talks on Monday 25 September and Tuesday 10 October . The talks were robust, constructive and have given us a lot to be positive about.

The people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union, but we are not leaving Europe. We want a deep and special partnership with the EU. We aim to get the right deal abroad and the right deal for people here at home. We will deliver a country that is stronger, fairer, more united and more outward-looking than ever before.

As a matter of firm policy, our notification will not be withdrawn for the simple reason that the majority of the British people voted to leave. We are determined to see that instruction through and now look forward to forging a new relationship with the European Union.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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