Where have all the Brexiters gone?

[MsHooliesCardigan]

Just that really. 52% voted to leave. I know Mumsnet isn't completely representative of the electorate but you would expect at least a few people to be banging the Brexit drum. The ones that were quite vocal seem to have lost their voice. Perhaps they're just bored with the whole thing but their silence really is deafening.

I'd flick over most other threads when your stock response for the last year is just that

Lost my response to this line.

Please do go back and find other examples because I do not recall having said that to anyone other than you, simply because your posts are so long and only rant about what an ogre the EU is, not how we can resolve our situation, perfectly demonstrated by the Croatia discussion.

I've also said something to faith about the format of her posts somewhere but I think then I did try and work out what was being said.

I don't know the answer to that one surfer

hip as worthwhile as yours but heyho.

This is the problem with giving you one line answers when theres a refusal to 'understand' Bear. In very very simplistic terms, because Ireland currently control the CTA on behalf of the UK. The 'border' is already at Irelands edge of territory.

'Is the EU a tad too complex for you?' hardly covers you in glory."

The irony ............ thats a gem.

coat holders

Sounds a bit like those people who talk about hive mind and people piling on

Or reinforcements

The irony ............ thats a gem.

Why is that 'a gem'?

You go on about me strutting around but you do exactly that, sneering at those who's knowledge you see as inferior to you.

The trouble is, you don't explain yourself well at all; I still don't understand what you are trying to say about Croatia/NI.

Surely the issue in NI is any border, regardless of who controls it.

I'd be interested to see if anyone else knows what you mean.

surfer Yugoslavia was never a member of the EU was it?
So, although you would expect the EU to have some influence, I wouldn't really expect them to have much control over what happened either. Unless you think they should have done something militarily - like with an EU army perhaps?

re Croatia - Maybe exceptions were made for that border, but I can tell you that travelling through the border it did not feel like the kind of set up that would be welcomed in Northern Ireland.
Also, I imagine it is easier to negotiate exceptions for border controls when joining the EU than it is when leaving.

Also is it just the EU who say that they don't want free movement between Northern Ireland and the EU? Because I thought that many leavers wanted control of our borders?

To take it down a notch (and maybe de-railing a bit)

Wrt the way negotiations are going at the mo, and if (as a Leaver) I’m ‘happy’ or not (which has been asked of Leavers a lot on threads):

It’s going pretty much as I expected them too.
There was always going to be a ridiculous politically motivated stand off - as in, U.K. won’t roll over, EU won’t budge (UK needs to be seen as ‘strong’ by its citizens & EU can’t be ‘seen to be giving UK a good deal/easy time of it’ as they don’t want to risk other countries following suit if it appears easy).

UK gave some concessions first, as I expected, EU nothing, as I expected.

This now allows Barnier to ‘appeal to EU council for some leeway’ and they can now appear magnanimous because they’ve proven their strength thus far.

Everybody knows that it’s in the best interests of everyone for the best possible deal to be reached on all sides so remain pretty confident that that will happen in the end.

This is why I don’t get frustrated by the apparent lack of progress thus far - it’s a ‘long game’ that’s being played, and it was always going to be.

I expect that Barnier will be freed up to open up the negotiations further after the upcoming council meeting - this is when things will start to progress properly (including NI border issue).

Apologies in advance for not responding if anyone comments - I’m super busy & am only on a quick break at the mo.

(massively overestimating estimating my importance...!! )

I hope you're right, Faith

UK gave some concessions first, as I expected, EU nothing, as I expected.

No rush on your reply, life stuff and all that but I'd be interested in where you think we've given concessions and the EU haven't.

The thing is , we shouldn't even be having a discussion about NI , if the Government had organised the referendum in the correct way , the options for leaving the EU , including the options for dealing with the border between NI and ROI , would have been clearly stated and people would have made their decision based on these . Instead we got the in/out referendum . The lot of them should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves

I completely agree with that frumpety, it's just about damage limitation now, not about genuinely acting in the best interests of the country.

Has the Government made public its own impact assessments yet ? They seem to be very reluctant to do so , can't imagine why though

I understand the need for damage limitation , but you need a clear idea of what the damage is going to be , who and what will be effected , for how long etc.

And it needs to be a bit more complex than , 'we knew it would be a bit shit for a while ( few years , ten years , more ) !

Caroline you are incredibly difficult to have a conversation with hence my comment.
You are so intent on being 'right' it isn't a conversation. It's being talked at. Icon picture you at you keyboard and seeing you going 'and right another thing..'
I'm not prepared to have a slanging match with you and you tend to use very old facts and statistics. A bit like Nigel Lawson's conversation with Miriam Gonzalez.
I'm not into point scoring so it's not a conversation for me.
twitter.com/daily_politics/status/918440729277448192

Icon = I can

squishysquirmy

But remainers always claim the EU has kept Europe peaceful. That’s not strictly true is it. The former Yugoslavia was in Europe at the time & the EU did not very much at all - as this article points out.

Back in the 1990s, the total failure of EU diplomacy helped speed former Yugoslavia into a brutal ethnic civil war. A fragile peace was finally imposed on those troubled lands not by the EU, but by Nato bombs and arm twisting backed by the Atlantic alliance's military muscle

So dear lurker. ( as if you didn’t know )
It’s not the EU who keep the peace in Europe. It’s NATO.

Remainers claim the the EU contributed towards peace within the EU. The exact extent to which it did so is not agreed upon by all, as there are all sorts of other complex factors which interconnect, including NATO, globalisation, economic stuff etc. It is impossible to say for sure, because we cannot look into another timeline where the EU never existed for comparison. But I do think it has helped maintain peace within he EU.
Yugoslavia was never in the EU. Yes, it was part of the continent of Europe so you could say that remainers who claim it kept the peace within Europe are wrong in that regard if you wanted to get semantic over it.

What we don't know, is whether without the existence of the EU the Yugoslav war wouldn't have spilled out into Europe as a whole and become a much bigger conflict.

Maybe the UK would have taken one side, maybe France or Germany would have supported another. And before you say that would be impossible because both countries were within NATO - it is not. It is possible for countries to take opposite sides without actively engaging their troops with each other, and NATO membership did not stop Greece and Turkey from fighting.

Look at how countries have been sucked into spiralling conflict in the past (WW1 is one good example).

And why didn't NATO prevent the war in Yugoslavia?

No rush on your reply, life stuff and all that but I'd be interested in where you think we've given concessions and the EU haven't.

Not concessions as such (poor phrasing from me) but we’ve shown we’re willing to be flexible on a couple of bits rather than dogmatically refusing to budge, and have indicated that we’re not just being huffy brits (e.g. the dance & posturing around ‘whistle for your money’ then TM giving assurance that we’re not going to renege on any of the monies we signed up to)
Also, the ‘concession’ that we’ve ‘backed down’ and are asking for/requesting their agreement for - for them to grant an implementation period.

We did that in the face of very narrow guidelines & a refusal of EU to budge (which we know that really it’s not actual, proper intransigence at this stage, just that Michele Barnier isn’t allowed to stray from his brief) - so it’s a bit of political theatre that has been played out if you see what I mean.

Sort of like the EU has been allowed to be seen as ‘flexing its muscles’ and we aren’t therefore viewed by the 27 as being ‘better’ sort of thing.

Does that make sense? (V rambly)

The real tests & concessions/agreements (both sides) will come in the next stage.

"Also is it just the EU who say that they don't want free movement between Northern Ireland and the EU?"

Yes. The system works well for UK and Ireland considering there are 167 'other' nations with varying travel, visa requirements. For some reason, the UK and Ireland are more than capable of managing 167 nationalities and a world immigration crisis, but arent capable of managing a further 'legally entitled to be there' 27? (There is absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the UK or the EU will ban citizens from travel).
You then look at NI and Irish citizens, and for some reason the EU believe that for the first time in almost 100 years (clearly excluding the troubles, WW2 etc) and for the sole purpose of 'negotiation', Irish and NI citizens shouldnt have the right to travel freely without passports between the two. My Croatia point absolutely demonstrates the EUs duplicity in this stance. What do the EU believe a NI citizen is going to do or gain by travelling to EU Ireland? Pay extra VAT? (Ill come to that) No one in the leave campaign, government, or any leave voter, has stated they voted for Brexit to keep the Irish out. Its a despicable and shit stirring 'theoretical' argument simply used to fan the flames and utterly disregards the rights of Irish given to them historically to settle in the UK.

There is no 'illegal immigrant' route problem to fix, as what numbers there have been, even at the height of the crisis, its a few hundred per year and theyve been picked up pretty quickly. 100s of thousands have been roaming across mainland europe, rocking up in Calais, and suddenly NI's a route risk that must be dealt with? My backside.

Goods on the other hand become a sticking point, only if the UK decide to suspend VAT. However, its never been suggested, its never been proposed, it certainly wasnt a basis or promise of the leave campaign, and indeed all sides believe VAT will remain. All sides benefit from VAT. BUT, there is a possibility the UK could, hence the one very slim caveat, that nothing can be agreed without trade negotiations. The EU could refuse to accept our VAT donations, but Im struggling to even contemplate what ridiculous scaremongering reason theyd use to do so.

Dont forget, Ireland currently charge 23% VAT, the UK 20%. Has that caused a problem between the 2 nations thats forced even a border debate? Absolutely not.

but we’ve shown we’re willing to be flexible on a couple of bits

Sorry to labour the point faith but what have we shown were willing to be flexible on?

We need an implementation period, that's not us backing down, it's us not having made preparations to avoid needing a transition period.