Where have all the Brexiters gone?

[MsHooliesCardigan]

Just that really. 52% voted to leave. I know Mumsnet isn't completely representative of the electorate but you would expect at least a few people to be banging the Brexit drum. The ones that were quite vocal seem to have lost their voice. Perhaps they're just bored with the whole thing but their silence really is deafening.

wise

How did the cake turn out

Lots of hope and dice rolling in your post dad. I'm sorry I can't bring myself to say wise as that would be a. disingenuous of me and b. It sounds a tad narcissisticc
You have forgotten that Singapore has evolved to this place over decades and came from a very different starting place from us both economically and culturally. It also has extremely high social housing, something like 90%.

You've said we might have blown our chance and even if we did have one (Which I disagree with), the case was never compelling enough to get a supermajority. And herein lies the problem, to get the kind of seismic change you want you needed people to want a describable future with the issues thought through rather than a protest vote that stuck it to the 'elite'. The leave campaign was so contaminated that it will find it difficult to overcome the promises it can't keep e.g.more funding for the NHS that many people thought would come quickly, less immigrants, being easy etc.
At this point it is irrelevant in the remain campaign was flawed as it didn't win (by a small margin) and as brexit continues it looks likely that at least some predictions will come true.
Even if in the long term brexit comes good we will have a very long and difficult Road to get there and the likely narrative through out this time will probably be, what would have happened if we stayed in. Ironically, I think it will be brexitscepticism on a much larger scale for the next 40 years and then we will probably ask to rejoin on much worse terms than we have now.

The world, I am an optimist but I do understand your anger at feeling that you have been negatively effected by a decision you don't agree with. It some ways I think it is more difficult to accept this way around as you perceive the loss of something you value and have real life negative impacts. The other way around it would have been more of the same.

Your comments about the effects for a generation made me think about the ex mining village I am originally from and the impact the loss of an industry still have on that area now. As someone from a mining family and area I never felt bitter about this, but felt there were missed chances to help the area regenerate.

I bet i dont find out about the cake

Cake is important

...and jam apparently

I am glad Davis won't back down, he knows that Barnier's hands are tied, he can't afford to back down from the EU side of pay up loads, as they need the money we would provide.
Davis knows as soon as he offers anything he will be told it's not enough, so then he would have to offer more and more.
I just don't get how the Remain side on here keep saying we have to tell them what we are willing to give, and not acknowledge the EU is never going to be able to agree to any kind of deal due to the amount of countries that all have different wants and needs, it's like telling everyone they have to accept one size will fit all.

stagsyren I have every sympathy with mining communities. And I agree with missed chances which was our government's decision (Not the EU) and I don't think you are alluding to this.
It is possible to move to another part of the country.
I am stuck here and unlikely to be able to exercise the choice to move to another country without negatively impacting my children's education as we are in the gcse/A level cycle. After which I think I will be too old to be accepted elsewhere and we probably won't be able to afford it given what the next 10 years look like.
And yes I'm fucking furious as the likely outcome is my children will emigrate (Which I accept they may have done anyway) and I have spent the day in my volunteer role talking about the lack of funding in education and how we are going to have make staff in our already stretched school redundant. This is likely to get worse and no I don't see an optimistic way forward.

And by the way I do hope I'm wrong but I fear not. I read too much.
This is now being driven by pure disaster capitalism (see legatum) and the pure brexit ideologues (who had some good points mixed in with the fantasy) have been had as much as the rest of us. We could do with a bloody good brave pragmatist to get us out of this mess. Whether this is a better out or in then is currently looking likely.

I had a jam sandwich earlier Rufus and very nice it was too.

Tis nice isnt it micheal

I like honey myself...or maybe peanut butter ( dont get that much as dd is allergic...only to eating them though, dont see why that means i cant heve one)

Very nice for an adapted recipe. Gluten free as I am allergic in a nasty way. Lots of chocolate. Lots of calories. Not enough xanthan gum as I always find judging that tricky. Candles taking a while to light nowadays though.

Yes Singapore is different. It started out as a new country overnight with nothing. 52 years old and it is now an exceedingly rich place. Don't get the idea social housing is all rented housing. It isn't. It is constructed by the Housing Development Board, so called HDBs but they can be bought on long leases. They also have 15% stamp duty surcharge on non-citizens buying places. Hmmm. Can't apply that to all the Greek dentists and doctors who have places here can we?

Singapore pays civil servants a lot. No stupid caps at PM salary there but the then again it is hard to get a role unless you are very smart and capable. Recent delays on the MRT meant the head of the railway resigned. Not like the Uk at all. Our (old) car cost a small mortgage but driving isn't a jammed up nightmare.

Lots more to say as well given Singapore negotiated trade deals with many other countries and completed one with the EU in 2014. It's still awaiting sign off in the EU in 2017. Why? And people say leaving stops us having trade deals. The EU seems perfectly capable of that. My money is on the UK concluding one with The little red dot as Singapore is known in a matter of months. FYI Singaporeans are some of the richest in Asja with a nominal GDP per capita about 5x that of Romania.

I have lots more to say on trade but it's late.

It seems a little sad to pass on the potential of good UK governance and plump for the EU when their track record of managing things in the interests of EU citizens is mixed at best. If they were truly running things for their citizens we would be talking trade right now. The delay is amazing and shows their true interests. Is it really in the interests of EU citizens to cease to have as ready access to UK goods and services? Really?

Personally I feel the walk away for no deal deadline has already passed and Hammond is an idiot. The IMF head has pretty much said it's time for the adults to get around the table and organise something good as the shock to the world economy will be vast. The UK said it wants an open and comprehensive trade deal and will carry on paying into the EU until exit from any transitional. The EU response? No. You need to do more I.e. Give us a promise of more money before we even start talking about the big issue. And still no one has said why we should stay other than leaving is hard.

I will play nicely if someone puts their head above the parapet and defends the idea of a federal EU and breaking up the UK, the ever closer union objective that is said very plainly now.

I will play nicely if someone can defend the common external tariff as a preferential thing to fewer tariffs or even when way back before we joined the EU the lack of tariffs with commonwealth countries.

Perhaps someone will defend the wisdom of the single currency across such a heterogeneous group of economies with no fiscal transfers. TARGET 2 balances don't count as they are supposed to be repaid. Germany's €835bn claim on other countries is rather large and makes you wonder about the sustainability.

I could do with someone explaining to me how great the four freedoms are and how inviolable, except when they are not in the case of Greek and Cypriot capital controls.

Yes. Leaving the EU could be bad, both for the UK and the EU, given the way things are going. Staying isn't all roses either and assuming catastrophe one way but benign seas the other is just daft.

Both staying and leaving need a reason. A bigger reason than changing course is hard.

Someone? Anyone? Bearbehind was honest and I respect the fear of the unkwn and the lack of competence of UK government. I see that too but at least we can lynch them later (metaphorically speaking clearly here) if the screw up.

(Labour don't cover themselves in glory here either and are opportunistic bastards in my book. K Starmer saying the government should do more to push for trade talks when 18 labour MEPs voted against exactly that is stunningly two faced as one concrete example. Another glaring hypocrisy is putting amendments up saying parliament needs to scrutinise every change to the regulatory regime when they happily ceded exactly that power to the EU and campaigned for that to continue).

I have sleep disruptions so am taking a tablet now. Goodnight again

"Define what the future trading relationship looks like and the NI border issue is answered. "

Absolutely this. The NI/ROI issue isnt about people, the CTA has always had exemptions in EU treaties and the ROI already enforce entry restrictions to the CTA from non CTA areas. Its about goods, and more specifically the EU demanding as you rightly put it, a "walled" EU.

But this is exactly why the EU refuse to discuss trade, and why theyve derided our existing proposal of merely reflecting how customs controls already work (point of origin compliance/point of destination compliance with random en route spot checks). Of course theyre demanding a "walled" trade border prior to even any discussion about trade, (unlike letting Croatia join with a virtually non existant border with Bosnia) This is Brexit. This is the UK. It is all about inflicting as much political and financial damage as possible as they told us they would.

Reasons to stay in the EU.
Currently 28 states and all including Greece are showing positive economic growth at the moment. Since brexit the UK shows the slowest growth and we haven't left yet.
Greece's problems are Greece's problems and we're always such. The euro highlighted but didn't cause their problems.
It is the largest trading block in the world.
It was founded to bring peace (eec) and has done so successfully.
Our biggest two industries are financial and services. These will be decimated by lack of passports. (no Deal is economic suicide).
We need FOM because we have an ageing population.
We have gone down the route of a service industry. This wasn't the EU this was us. Now we've done it were stuck with it. We unfortunately need cheap labour to support it. If we don't have this hundreds and thousands will be out of work.
We need a bouyont economy to support the internal demand for a service industry.
We have economies of scale with Europe wide agencies such as eurotrom, Eda etc.
We take part in and get the benefit of research projects that we wouldn't get otherwise.
We get access to early drug trials that we won't otherwise. (I'm sure patients will be happy)
We have reciprocal mutually beneficial NHS programs which will be stopping where we train their junior doctors and they staff our rotas in hard to staff rotas.
By the way Singapore essentially a city state and not a country. It's like comparing canary wharf to Oldham. (nothing against Oldham by the way).
I'm sure I can think of some more

Passports = passporting

And Varoufakis says on balance despite his criticism of the EU he'd still stay in.

why you are comfortable with ceding sovereignty as much as we have and more

wisedad can you explain how we actually ceded sovereignty when even the government white paper said we didn't really, it just felt like it.

I didn't chose Remain because 'I was scared of Leaving' - that is quite different to not being willing to condone something so kamikaze.

Much of the rest of your post is very idealistic; our governments could have addressed training and investment issues but haven't- why do you think they will now?

The fact is the infrastructure to leave simply isn't in place and, as is being demonstrated by our inept government right now, we don't have the motivation to make the changes required quickly enough.

Could you also stop telling us just how busy you are with everything else in life- it's really quite tedious.

Define what the future trading relationship looks like and the NI border issue is answered

Or mor accurately, 'tell us we won't need tariffs and the problem will go away'

That's the only solution that is workable because anything else requires either a land or sea border and neither of those is going to work.

The trouble is, we are not going to get frictionless trade outside the Single Market, the sooner we accept that and make plans accordingly, the better.

plausible nailed it. Automation is coming to screw us all. We need to fundamentally change the structures that have existed since the Industrial Revolution. We need a universal income, for starters.

Brexit is still bullshit, of course.

Heavens Theworldis full of idiots, replying to this is going push bears 'long and boring' button.....

"Currently 28 states and all including Greece are showing positive economic growth at the moment. Since brexit the UK shows the slowest growth and we haven't left yet."

Nope. Year on year the UK out performs the eurozone. As an aside, Greece, debt levels 180% of gdp, Italy 133%, Portugal 129%, Belgium 106%, Spain 99%, France 96%? Or perhaps you hold Romania up as a shining beacon of success? Debt to GDP around the 35% mark, over 90% home ownership and their real wage growth has continued to rise over the last few years. The fact the majority dont have bathrooms or hot water is a minor irrelevance, as is the average monthly salary of 400eu. *

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UK real wage growth on the other hand continues to chronically shrink. In real terms, down over 10% from 10 years ago. Calling it 'stagnant' is optimistic. *
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"Greece's problems are Greece's problems and we're always such. The euro highlighted but didn't cause their problems."

Yes it did. The euro, loss of national currency and control, and being forced into punitive bailout (despite a referendum overwhelmingly rejecting any bailout packages) was absolutely the catalyst. By the way, the ECB only this week publicised theyve already made 8billion euros out of Greece' bailout package. Arent they doing well. *
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"It is the largest trading block in the world."

The IMF calculates individual countries’ shares of world GDP in PPP terms.1 Its database goes back to 1980 when the EU28’s share of world GDP (in PPP terms) was 30.9% . The US’s was 25.0% and China’s just 2.2%. The EU28 was comfortably the largest economic bloc in the world. The UK accounted for 3.9% of the world economy in 1980 and so the EU28’s share excluding the UK was 27.0%, still ahead of the US’s 25.0%.*
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By 2012, however, the US’s share had already crept ahead of the EU28’s. The US and the EU28 accounted for 19.5% and 19.2% of the global economy respectively. According to the data the EU28 (even including the UK) was no longer the world’s largest economy, albeit by a small margin. It had been overtaken by the US. And the EU28 excluding the UK comprised just 16.4% of the world economy.

Looking ahead, the situation will be even less favourable for the EU. By 2018 the IMF suggests that Europe will be the third in ranking of the “big three” (the EU28, the US and China). The US’s share, remarkably, slips but modestly (to 18.6%), China’s rise to 17.9% whilst the EU’s will have fallen to 16.7%. Excluding the UK the EU28’s proportion of global activity will be just 14.2%.

Thats a 50% drop in global market in 30 years, and a trend that continues unabated.

"It was founded to bring peace (eec) and has done so successfully. "

Nope, that would be NATO. Just on a personal note, Ive never felt so safe........not.*
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"Our biggest two industries are financial and services. These will be decimated by lack of passports. (no Deal is economic suicide)."

Decimated? Who says? The Guardian...again? Latest research shows the impact of the loss of passporting will be "modest" and certainly not a risk to the City.*
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"We need FOM because we have an ageing population. "

???????? *
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"We have gone down the route of a service industry. This wasn't the EU this was us. Now we've done it were stuck with it. We unfortunately need cheap labour to support it. If we don't have this hundreds and thousands will be out of work. "

No we dont. Profits have never been higher. Cheap labour has meant higher profit thats all, nine of which have been passed onto the 'workforce'. But glad you agree that the cheap labour body shop exists. Just how cheap do you think it should go, youre more than happy with 30 'cheap' workers living in one house?

"We need a bouyont economy to support the internal demand for a service industry."

True. But I disagree with the return of slave labour to achieve it. Fruit pickers £2.50 an hour. Brilliant, a very wealthy gang master is created and another 30 families are driven into poverty. So much for EU 'protections'.

"We have economies of scale with Europe wide agencies such as eurotrom, Eda etc.
We take part in and get the benefit of research projects that we wouldn't get otherwise."*
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This is a touch sweeping, but the Nuclear Safeguards Bill was submitted yesterday, and most research projects (and regulatory bodies) stand alone outside of EU membership, but if you can name one Ill go look.*
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"We get access to early drug trials that we won't otherwise. (I'm sure patients will be happy)"

Who says we wont?*
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"We have reciprocal mutually beneficial NHS programs which will be stopping where we train their junior doctors and they staff our rotas in hard to staff rotas."

????? What, who, where? By reciprocal mutually beneficial NHS programmes, you mean we employ eu doctors and nurses? Yes we do, and yes we fill training places with them, yet we employ far more non-eu, and who says eu professionals wont be welcome? Is this the whole 'all eu citizens will be barred from the UK and UK citizens will be barred from europe' myth again?*

By the way Singapore essentially a city state and not a country. It's like comparing canary wharf to Oldham. (nothing against Oldham by the way).
I'm sure I can think of some more
*
I know nothing of Singapore.

Is this why we have threads on here, advising people (usually those who are indeed feeling vulnerable) to stockpile food and either prepare for brexit armageddon or get out before the seportation ships turn up? Its shamefull.

Ireland, NI and the Government have categorically stated there will be no hard border in Ireland. The government has categorically stated EU citizens currently here will be protected. The government has categorically stated that any short fall in EU funding will be met for the foreseeable future. They have the power, and the authority to give those assurances. They have it within their wish to do so.

The EU on the other hand, who have no power or authority over how any nation (any nation not in bailout that is ) spends its money or who any nation chooses to welcome to its shores, have decided theyd like to stir the scaremongering shit. Immediately targetting those that are indeed feeling the most vulnerable.

There was no reason whatsoever, why trade talks couldnt take place first. None. And indeed when it comes to anyones job security, agreeing trade to then guarantee and clarify any citizens personal status and their future employment, was the ONLY way to negotiate.

That is why this so called pantomime of 'negotiations' will continue to be blocked and will ultimately fail. EU citizens job security isnt even on their agenda.

Here end another of Carolinesbeanies long and boring posts........

"That's the only solution that is workable because anything else requires either a land or sea border and neither of those is going to work."

Conveniently deaf again Bear? Explain Croatia.

"We have reciprocal mutually beneficial NHS programs which will be stopping where we train their junior doctors and they staff our rotas in hard to staff rotas.

My ghast is actually flabbered. What?

This reminds of people thinking that they can rock up anywhere in the EU and get free health care.

Carolinesbeanies you don't do succinct do you.

caroline, you were quite right, I couldn't be arsed to read that diatribe- if it had been correctly formatted it might have been easier to read but as it was it was just a blur.

You asked so nicely for me to 'explain Croatia'

I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of everything the EU does but I would say there is a huge difference between 'virtually no borders' and absolutely no borders.

Any border in NI is going to create a problem.

If you feel the need to enlighten me on Croatia, could you do it in concise points rather than your usual information download.

I couldn't be arsed to read that diatribe

It's obvious that you don't understand the meaning of the word.

Sadly no, because experience here tells me any abridged explanation will get twisted, misinterpreted and hung onto like a pit bull with locking jaws.

Perhaps its also the subject matter that many complain is too complex, too broad for lowly leavers to have even an inkling about so they voted in their ignorance? Either its complex and broad, or it isnt. You made the list (and I do utterly support your right to a view) it was a tad long, but hey, thats Brexit, and if Id replied with a dismissive one liner, you wouldnt have been any nearer understanding my view.

Defo have a and digest

Sorry, that last reply was obviously to Theworldisfullofidiots.........