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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Where have all the Brexiters gone?

728 replies

MsHooliesCardigan · 10/10/2017 04:51

Just that really. 52% voted to leave. I know Mumsnet isn't completely representative of the electorate but you would expect at least a few people to be banging the Brexit drum. The ones that were quite vocal seem to have lost their voice. Perhaps they're just bored with the whole thing but their silence really is deafening.

OP posts:
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frumpety · 12/10/2017 17:26

Wise each country in the EU has different VAT rates , some have more than one reduced rate , some have only one , each country generally has some things that are similar that they reduce rates on , some have lots of reduced rate goods and services , others only have a few . So there is room for manoeuvre within to make changes to fit individual countries needs .

RandomlyGenerated · 12/10/2017 17:30

frumpety that was a poll of 1000 or so Sky customers “interviewed” by SMS.

Question was:

Which comes closer to your views regarding Brexit:

No deal is better than a bad deal Any deal is better than no deal

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 12/10/2017 17:44

I think wisedad is struggling with the cut and paste thingy on here

But i have been helpful and found the question

@bearbehind. Great. Now you have taken the bait. Pray tell us in your great wisdom as a remain voter and proponent of the EU what the arguments are for staying.

So i think its that one...the rest of the post seemed to be more rude and unpleasant comments so i left those

I am very helpful

frumpety · 12/10/2017 18:11

Thank you randomly , that is actually quite a complicated question isn't it ? Because that means people have to work out what they consider a bad deal to be and there are going to be a huge range of differences of opinion as to what a bad deal constitutes .
In fear of getting my wrists slapped by Bear and harking back to the vote , this was to me the biggest problem with the question posed at the referendum , the population was asked a question with almost limitless possibilities with regards personal view's of what leaving would mean and entail .

Bearbehind · 12/10/2017 18:13

Thanks Rufus

No goady fuckery there from wisedad at all eh- 'taken the bait' Hmm

Rather highlights his motives but anyway that question is actually quite easy actually- we have absolutely fuck all in place for Leaving.

Had there been a detailed plan to leave then my decision might have been different but, given we're nearly 18 months into this process and negiotiations today have been described as 'deadlocked' it's clear we still have no clue.

Actually that's not true, the 'plan' always appears to have been 'stop immigration, stop paying into the EU but keep everything else the same.

And still we're banging our heads against a brick wall and insisting that's what can and should happen.

Bearbehind · 12/10/2017 18:38

No deal is better than a bad deal Any deal is better than no deal

So a completely biased question then, even I would have opted for the former.

MichaelFabricantsHair · 12/10/2017 20:42

Riddle me this:
No deal is better than a bad deal Any deal is better than no deal?
What am I?
Clue: a giant clusterfuck Grin

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 12/10/2017 20:48

I am really surprised that Noel Edmonds isn't liberally quoted on these threads

Everytime someone says deal or no deal i think of him

Its really distracting

RandomlyGenerated · 12/10/2017 20:52

Does that mean David Davis is Mr Blobby in disguise?

No wonder the negotiations are stalled - he’d just be yelling BLOBBY BLOBBY BLOBBY at Barnier.

stargayren · 12/10/2017 20:53

God I am scared coming in here with you lot ripping each other's posts apart, but I have put on my big girl pants and want to get involved.

I voted leave, average person from the midlands. I voted leave because I felt the EU systems were so bloated and decisions made became more about the politics that the practicalities, for me it had nothing to do with immigration and other stereotypes often suggested. Another poster earlier on referred to this as a web, which I agree with and her comment around buying a financial product without understanding the terms and conditions.

We were given a simple choice yes or no, for me this came with no expectation of what that yes or no would look like. I do find the focus on leavers having a plan interesting , I expected that all the country would want to contribute to this discussion and created the future legislation which represents everyones views as much as possible?

OP wanted to know if we are still around, I think this thread shows we are but like others I look at threads like this and my hearts sinks, because while we are still doing this we are divided and we all need to be working together.

So here I am, a leaver who is not an expert in any way, offering to answer any questions you have to the best of my ability and honestly.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 12/10/2017 21:00

That wiukd explain it randomly

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 12/10/2017 21:00

Hey star

Bearbehind · 12/10/2017 21:07

We were given a simple choice yes or no, for me this came with no expectation of what that yes or no would look like.

I'm not trying to 'rip you apart' but I'm genuinely astounded by the naiveity of that comment.

In what other situation do you get to simply say yes or no without thinking about what either choice entails and what the repercussions are?

Why did you think a decision on whether to unravel 40 years of allegiance with our closest geographical neighbours 'came with no expectation of what that yes or no would look like'?

stargayren · 12/10/2017 21:23

Hey rufusGrin

Sorry bear my comments are obviously not quite clear. I didn't presume that what I think should happen would happen, because the country needs to decide as a whole. To try and give an example science research funding, in my view we really need to agree something which allows us to share research and skills across all countries, but also allows us to undertake research without the red tape expectations of applying for and undertaking eu funded research, but I am not expert in this field and they may be different elements which need to be considered.

I didn't choose yes with a devil may care attitude of whatever will happen would and I didn't care as long as it was yes which I think is what you believe.

Bearbehind · 12/10/2017 21:26

stargayren your last sentence seems to contradict the one I quoted above.

You either didn't think about the repercussions or you did.

Either way it doesn't really matter now but just as an example of where we go from here- how do you envisage the NI issue being resolved?

stargayren · 12/10/2017 21:38

Bear I think we could get lost in semantics if we wanted. "No expectations" means that just because I voted leave I don't believe I own what the complete outcome is. I would think that everyone who wants should be able to represent their views to their local mp and I would hope they shape the end product. That bit probably is naive😊.

In terms of the NI border, I personally wouldn't want to see manned border control and checkpoints but something based on cctv and port, plane traveller monitoring?

Is the NI border something which could have a big impact on you personally? What would you like to see?

Theworldisfullofidiots · 12/10/2017 21:40

We were given a simple choice yes or no, for me this came with no expectation of what that yes or no would look like. I do find the focus on leavers having a plan interesting , I expected that all the country would want to contribute to this discussion and created the future legislation which represents everyones views as much as possible?

Many leavers did have plans. My leave campaigning acquaintances certainly did, so did Hannan, so did Farage. One campaign group pulled their plan (I can't remember which one but I'm sure I could find it) before the Referendum as it included a risk assessment because it wasn't palatable. The problem was/is what various leave people wanted is as diverse and incompatible as is possible. See the Norths having some weird kind of public breakdown on twitter.

Re pulling together. That might have been possible if hadn't of been for the narrative post the vote which won with a slim majority. It wasn't about alaying remain voters fears. It was about appeasing leave voters and silencing any opposition. If remain voters had at any point felt listened to rather than being called traitors or for instance when writing to an MP, actually having issues addressed instead of having the same tired line trotted out 'the will of the people' we might be in a different position.
I voted remain which is obvious from my posts. I currently feel completely powerless and that I have very little control over my future. I'm stuck as my children are at secondary school and we are in exam rounds and will be for the next seven years after which point it will be too late to start again elsewhere.
No Deal brexit will have to be funded from somewhere and that funding is effectively our children's future.
There is no opportunity to come together and create this together as our leaders have firmly cemented the division. If you voted leave they are carrying out your will (Except there are an awful lot of unhappy leave voters out there). And If you voted remain. Tough shit. Were not interested. It's like living in a dictatorship.
And you wonder why people are angry.
I predicted our leadership would collapse if we voted out. It was obvious. My leave campaigning acquaintance response was - oh well.

Bearbehind · 12/10/2017 21:44

In terms of the NI border, I personally wouldn't want to see manned border control and checkpoints but something based on cctv and port, plane traveller monitoring?

Where is the infrastructure for that going to come from?

No it won't affect me personally but it's a perfect example of why I voted to Remain.

We have no feasible answers to questions that need answering now.

NI will be our land border with the EU and no options, except the illusive cake and eat it, work

  • a hard border breaches the GFA
  • the DUP won't allow a sea border and seeing as TM needs their support that's a nonstarter

Besides, even if a sea border and NI staying in the Single Market were an option, that would create merry hell in Scotland and Wales.

We literally have no sensible choice here.

stargayren · 12/10/2017 22:02

Bear I do think tech is the best option and we should be thinking about planning the infrastructure now. Obviously I recognise that this carries an additional cost.

The world, I am disappointed with how our leaders are leading this. I was quite angry when David Cameron walked away and felt it was undemocratic.
I am however still hopeful that in time we can develop something which everyone wants to be part of.

WiseDad · 12/10/2017 22:09

Alas cut and paste eluded me as I was busy doing life things. Apologies for not spoon feeding anyone. Curl-f is a useful function I find, if you can excuse the pun.

I posted a brief, very brief note in an interlude between working and going home. Since then I have also been busy with other stuff. The single question I posted, "why stay?" In a nutshell, hasn't really been answered. Saying we should stay because we don't have a plan for leaving is interesting and I can see why you might say that but it doesn't answer why you are comfortable with ceding sovereignty as much as we have and more. "Just because leaving is scary" means you are not even addressing the issues that cause the leave voter to think differently. No wonder it's a dialogue of the deaf.

As for my comment about taking the bait, it isn't goading a response but a harmless expression to indicate that I had hoped to start a more detailed debate on the issue with some baited points to lead onwards. It certainly didn't require an abusive response. But hey....

Right then. I hope we get a free trade focussed country with responsible government and politicians who realise that we have to earn our way in the world. I hope we get to see that importing labour with no increase in per capita GDP for years is a terrible direction to go in as it socialises the costs of the increased population whilst the benefits of migration accrue to the migrants and shareholders. Now given I am a shareholder in many businesses myself I am torn but the quality of life (read housing costs, commuting time, school issues, language and cultural problems) damage is now palpable.

Trade, even in the EU, isn't free. Let's not forget that most economic activity occurs inside a country. Common regulatory standards apply to the entire country's economy not just the trading but and this has a cost. On my patch, which will remain unstated you will just have to trust me, the cost benefit analysis was clearly fudged for the lastest EU directive. Very very clearly fudged. There was no way it was a net positive for the U.K. As the prior local regime was good for the industry, for the consumer and for the country as a whole. EU regs have vastly increased the cost to industry and consumer for no apparent benefits in terms of protection. Those improvements that have been achieved could of occurred anyway under the prior U.K. Regulators powers.

Leaving enables those powers to be brought back in house, for regulation to be more responsive to the rather tricky position we are in. And don't give me the chlorine washed chicken crap argument. Please read more before regurgitating stuff. I do think US food is dire but it isn't as if people are dying from chlorine poisoning or salmonella in vast numbers there is it?

A kick, as m4dad puts it is an interesting analogy. I see it more as rolling the dice. It might work out very well indeed if we can wean the country of the cheap labour, low investment business culture that has developed and move up the skills curve. It is necessary but we, as a country, have had politicians who took a different path: Low skilled labour, low training budgets for local high skilled workers, wholesale importation of labour to feed a Ponzi scheme so we can have a large, absolute size, economy for minimal cost. That way leads to an awful end which we are just accelerating if Brexit is too much for our political class.

Exiting isn't simple but surely if you think we should leave then better to leave now, at the first chance we had since the original entry, than later when it gets harder still. Don't forget that the EEC has transformed out to all recognition into something that we clearly didn't want to be in. The might of project fear, with the awfully weak analysis pumped out by the treasury and many others, plus the murder of Jo Cox and still the country voted out.

On here many post about poor relationships and the default response to trouble with a partner isn't to stay and work it out but to leave, to build an alternative life, to exit. Yet the mood music here on Brexit is something completely different. No desire to leave at all. Better to stay in a broken marriage, no one has come back on any Leave point about EU misfunction so I must assume agreement, than leave. Why is it so easy to advise others from a distance to break up when there is no personal risk? Where Brexit is concerned is the personal risk judged too great for what I assume are the same sorts of people? I find this puzzling.

This is written on a Taiwanese made, US designed iPad. This reminds me that people traded governments and countries don't trade. The job of the government is to create an environment where value creation is easy. Note I didn't say wealth there as we as a nation can decide to value something other than financial assets. We picked housing but perhaps, just perhaps Brexit will force us to look away from the old failing model to something new.

The Singapore analogy might be a poor one as Singapore is tiny but their mind set is different. They have tax rebates for self funded training courses to boost skills. They have explicit differences between the status of citizens and PRs and resident workers who are there to add value to the country. Singapore explicitly trains enough people for high skill roles like doctors and so on rather than relying on imports. Singapore recognises that it needs to earn its keep in a global competitive market place. If the UK made best use of its wonderful legacy instead of appearing ashamed then we wouldn't be here. Brexit is a final chance to avoid a complete decline. It looks like it might be blown but we were on a downwards trajectory anyway.... Hinckley Point.... need I say more?

Not proofread by the way. Sorry for typos and rambling. It's late. I have stuff to do and sleep to catch up on.

Theworldisfullofidiots · 12/10/2017 22:16

The world, I am disappointed with how our leaders are leading this. I was quite angry when David Cameron walked away and felt it was undemocratic.
I am however still hopeful that in time we can develop something which everyone wants to be part of.

At this moment in time I think that is incredibly unlikely but I admire your optimism.
I think brexit is short sighted and isolationist. I have never felt more like I live on a tiny island rather than a global outward facing economy. It's not just trade, it's a myriad of other things like research, drug development, health, education etc etc. None of this has been thought through and every time someone mentions anything challenging we are told we are not optimistic enough.
It's generally reckoned that this is going to take a generation to sort out. That's the rest of my life and all my children's working lives. (And no I'm not catastrophising there is fairly robust evidence for this.) So I live in a country where some people have made the choice for me to make my life worse and I don't get to have another choice about this in four/five years time when it's not working. Brexit isn't just for Christmas it's a life sentence.

WiseDad · 12/10/2017 22:16

The.NI border is an interesting one. The EU is making it an issue as they want to maintain the idea of a strong wall around the EU to avoid letting in goods without a large tariff being paid. Why? That isn't something that is ever asked. Just acceptance that the EU need to be walled off from the rest of the world's markets.

They are using it as a blcoking issue that can't be solved without an idea of what trade will look like in the future and then refusing to discuss that self same trade relationship.

Discussing the e-border or the hard border or the soft border completely plays into this narrative. Define what the future trading relationship looks like and the NI border issue is answered. Now tell me, what should the future trading relationship look like between two countries?

And don't forget the mantra. Tariffs are incident on the importer and ultimate customer.

WiseDad · 12/10/2017 22:17

Oh. Msg 499. I also got 299. Do I win a tour of the EU parliament building in Strasbourg?

WiseDad · 12/10/2017 22:25

global outward facing economy
Ironic really as that was what the Uk used to be many many years ago. To think that staying in the EU and focussing on the nearest neighbours with means being global is quite funny. It's as if when someone says leave the EU and trade freely people say "no we're only small (5/6th largest economy?)" but also they say five minutes later they feel the Uk is globally facing and needs to trade. What do you really think? Walled EU garden or global? It's hard to be both....

Next point.... population explosion. That has nothing to do with trade so saying "fewer immigrants until infrastructure and society has caught up" says nothing about trade. They are equated when people say "little englander and xenophobe and imperial grandeur" but these are pejoratives used by a remain supporters to misclassify their opponents arguments.

Right. I do have to go. Goodnight.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 12/10/2017 22:26

Alas cut and paste eluded me as I was busy doing life things

Oh behave Grin you were just being lazy

I had to stop doing life things to cut and paste...you were spot on with the 299 post bit though

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