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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Where have all the Brexiters gone?

728 replies

MsHooliesCardigan · 10/10/2017 04:51

Just that really. 52% voted to leave. I know Mumsnet isn't completely representative of the electorate but you would expect at least a few people to be banging the Brexit drum. The ones that were quite vocal seem to have lost their voice. Perhaps they're just bored with the whole thing but their silence really is deafening.

OP posts:
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DrivenToDespair · 11/10/2017 18:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

purits · 11/10/2017 18:45

frictionless trade and that is not going to happen if the red line is FOM.

That's fine by me. Why does a trade bloc get to choose who does or doesn't come into my country?

M4Dad · 11/10/2017 18:46

Since last time I kept quiet, as I got accused of being paid to post

is that why some people have referred to me as a "bot" today?

OCSockOrphanage · 11/10/2017 18:46

I voted to join, or rather, to continue membership of the EEC in 1975 but the vote was about joining a trading group. I became mildly Eurosceptic when the EU became fixated on mission creep creating a Federation of Europe; I thought the referendum should have come much earlier, after the several rounds of discussion in the early 1990s. Had the debate been had then, it would have been more straightforward to leave. Since then, I have watched the Commission become ever less accountable and more distanced from the electorate. Most of the aspects of cooperation I regard as important pre-date the 1990s, such as Europol (1928), NATO (1948 ish) and the Erasmus scheme.

I may be old, but I am neither uneducated nor impoverished, and I consulted my son to ask how he preferred I vote before casting my vote as he was then six weeks short of 18. His clear preference was to leave. I accept there will be difficulties and mistakes made in the process, and that we shall have to resuscitate lapsed routines such as that for the importation of seasonal labour in agriculture. We must also pay our share of future commitments entered into during membership and realise there will be no windfall for the NHS (which is unsustainable in its present form in any case). But it is an opportunity, not a sentence. Innovative dynamic economies like the UK's will attract investment, and not just from rogue industries that want to escape onerous environmental, health and safety, food hygiene etc. regulations, which I might remind some people were in many cases modelled on the UK's standards in any case. (Not in all regards, I grant, before someone reminds us of the Blue Flag beaches and higher sewage treatment requirements imposed by Europe.) Some of the leaving process will be painful, but it will not all be bad.

WiseDad · 11/10/2017 18:47

m4dad, purits. Nice tries. It isn't worth it. The argument over demonstrate versus believe is the debate in a microcosm. Interestingly enough no one put out a well argued "benefits and costs" statement for EU membership, only a poorly argued and reasoned "cost to leave" package.

Remainers believe we haven't sacrificed democracy even though the EU commission propose legislation and commissioners are allocated a domain and literally no-one in the U.K. has any say. Not the PM in the council, not the ministers of the area, not the UK parliament and certainly not you or I. These commissioners get to propose legislation in the form of directives, that can be maximum harmonising, and define the scope of the delegated acts that the directive allows. The delegated acts wording is developed by committees operating under EU bodies like EBA, EIOPA etc which have Uk representation but the Uk doesn't always "hold the pen" and so has to negotiate what it wants. We are pretty good at that usually. The entirety of the Uk industry and economy in the area concerned has to follow all the rules not just the bit that trades internationally. This can mean less consumer protection in some areas than desired. Where directives are not maximum harmonising we can go to a higher bar but must still accept what has been decided.

The critical fact is at the end of this process we have zero chance of wiping the slate clean and creating a new rule book by voting. We can vote in a new government here but even if the impact of the directive is to wipe out an entire sector of the UK economy we can do nothing to get the rules off the statute book unless we plead and plead, and ultimately have to give up something significant somewhere else in the negotiation to get the rules changed.

The EUs gradually increasing areas of legislative competence mean the patch the Uk voter can directly influence by voting gets smaller and smaller as time goes by.

The pre referendum pitch was that the EU hadn't had much impact on domestic law and we were still fully sovereign but after we voted to leave suddenly it is amazing how much EU law was affecting thr Uk and who hard it is to leave. Hmmm.

I have read this thread with interest and once again no one has stood up and said they want to be in a federal Europe. The argument for staying is that it will cost too much to leave. It costs a fortune to move house but people still do it. Poor analogy perhaps but it shows how weak the remain argument is if you just think economics.

And as I said up above the treasury model for the costs of leaving assume several things that are demonstrably false or uses poor logic. One glaring example is the underlying assumption that the cost of leaving is equivalent to the benefits of joining seen by countries in the EU. A moments thought is all that is required to see that this is stupid. Costs of shipping have fallen dramatically since the U.K. joined. Tariffs have fallen across the world dramatically since the U.K. joined. The Eastern European countries had a chronic lack of investment that was dramatically eased when they joined the EU which certainly doesn't apply when leaving. Etc etc etc I can understand why the modelling is simplified, dramatically, when you make this assumption but it doesn't make the output of the model true.

But hey. I am a stupid leave voter and can't possibly have thought through the issues, nor can I have any actual experience of EU law making and the compromises in the process.

mummmy2017 · 11/10/2017 18:50

I do want to ask what do you think we can do to increase world wide trade.

M4Dad · 11/10/2017 18:50

WiseDad

All I can say is "where were you earlier?"

Great post, btw.

surferjet · 11/10/2017 18:50

Did you give a shiney shit about all the people here who couldn’t get a job because of FOM?

I couldn’t care less who comes here as long as we need their skills & have jobs for them, as well as school places, houses, & all the rest of it - you can’t let half of Europe in when we’ve got our own unemployed & no fucking houses for them to live in.

CardinalSin · 11/10/2017 18:50

It's a bit ironic to find M4 accusing people of being goady...

M4Dad · 11/10/2017 18:51

OCSockOrphanage

Another great post!

CardinalSin · 11/10/2017 18:53

"I do want to ask what do you think we can do to increase world wide trade."

Well, apparently our options seem to be a run to a low wage economy, low rights, no benefits society. Nothing else seems to have been suggested.

DrivenToDespair · 11/10/2017 18:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FaithHopeCharityDesperation · 11/10/2017 18:53

is that why some people have referred to me as a "bot" today?

That’s a standard thing on here M4.

The remainers (usually found on the WM threads) call anyone who isn’t in their gang & who has an opinion different to their party line a ‘bot’ or a ‘shill’.

They find it difficult to comprehend that there are posters on MN who voted to leave of their own volition.

CardinalSin · 11/10/2017 18:55

And we do seem to be getting back to the Schrodingers Immigrant argument.

M4Dad · 11/10/2017 18:55

*you've benefitted very nicely from taxing working age migrants who've been propping up your public services and filling the Treasury's coffers.

I migrant on less than 24K a year takes out of the system rather than puts in.

Most migrants are on lower end of the pay scale. Most, not all.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 11/10/2017 18:56

Surfer, unemployment is low and we have a housing crisis because of unaffordable property and the council house sell off.

CardinalSin · 11/10/2017 18:57

Actually Faith, the one's who get called "Bots" are the ones who magically appear to keep derailing a thread, not adding anything to the grand sum of knowledge, or just goad with "we won you lost" rubbish, and then disappear until the next time Brexit looks to be in difficulty.

MsHooliesCardigan · 11/10/2017 19:00

Look, it's utter bollocks to say that all Remainers think that all Leavers are thick
and racist. I have never ever said that and nor have about 95% of us. It's just as lazy an argument as saying that all Leavers think that all Remainers are part of a Metropolitan elite.
Can we please try and put the stereotypes to one side? FWIW, I do live in London but DH and I are both mental health nurses and about as far from 'the elite' as you could get.
DH is Northern Irish and his DM, who is in her late 70's and had a very close friend killed in the Omagh bomb, is absolutely terrified about how Brexit will affect NI.

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 11/10/2017 19:03

The argument for staying is that it will cost too much to leave. It costs a fortune to move house but people still do it.

That is a poor analogy as an attempt to support the vote to leave because it simply demonstrates how insane this situation is.

Yes people spend money on moving house all the time but they look at

  • what they currently have
  • what they could have
  • how much the move will cost
  • how their life would change in the new property v the old
  • what facilities/ amentites they will gain/ lose

Then weigh up the options.

They don't say 'yes I'd like to move house so I'll get someone to burn my current one down then wait until they sort me out with a better one'

mummmy2017 · 11/10/2017 19:15

The trouble is I really do think the direction the EU was heading was not one I wanted to be part of.
I just keep thinking that people want to trade with us, and sell us goods, and that they will also buy goods from us, and that this will carry on, that much as the EU keep spouting that they will only ever give us a bad deal, aren't they shooting themselves in the foot as well. Look at the Fishing problems, already the EU fishermen are not happy that the EU have not come forward with ideas to help them out.
This can't be the only area of the EU that won't be happy with no deal.
Spain may have said they don't want Holiday Makers, but funny it;s happened after the holiday season is almost done, so many of these places need tourism to fund their islands trade, as they have nothing else.
It's not all about how to punish the UK, which is how it reads right now.

seasaltnblackpepper · 11/10/2017 19:15

Genuine question. Have name changed as I don’t want to get into a massive fight but genuinely curious.

If it’s such a headache for the government and it’s going to be an absolute nightmare for us all why did the tories even bother hold a referendum?
People I have asked (friends and family)had no idea it was in their manifesto and weren’t bothered if there was a referendum or not.

purits · 11/10/2017 19:19

'yes I'd like to move house so I'll get someone to burn my current one down then wait until they sort me out with a better one'

Yes, it would be nice to get trade talks going with RoTW but the EU won't let us. They are such good friends to us, aren't they.Hmm
I'd tell them to stuff it and do it anyway. I hope that's what we are doing on the QT.

WiseDad · 11/10/2017 19:19

@bearbehind. Great. Now you have taken the bait. Pray tell us in your great wisdom as a remain voter and proponent of the EU what the arguments are for staying.

Please don't say again that it is too expensive to leave as that cost is, as you have established in your own post, relative to the costs and benefits.

And don't be daft and say the costs are just the money we send to the EU. That is a red herring. As an example please include the minimum VAT on female sanitary products as a cost as many people on mumsnet pay that and money out of your pocket is a cost in my book as it can't be spent on what you want.

@m4dad. I don't have time, or desire, to sit and write long emails. Five mins turns into ten. Any idiot can write a short post and try to pretend they are in the Monty Python Argument sketch but I saw you needed reinforcements.

Interestingly enough bearbehind only picks up on the house analogy from my prior post and not on anything else. The analogy which I myself said was a poor one but the only thing I could think of at the time. Beats a divorce analogy on a site that seems full of people on their way to, going through, a divorce as well as those onto their umpteenth marriage. Thought that might be a little insensitive.

WiseDad · 11/10/2017 19:20

300th message. I won a prize?

Bearbehind · 11/10/2017 19:20

as the EU keep spouting that they will only ever give us a bad deal

Where have they said that?

We are leaving the EU therefore cannot retain the same terms- it's really not rocket science.

There was a tweet yesterday that said something along the lines of

'I've cancelled my Amazon Prime membership but told them I want all the benefits thereof indefinitely. The ball is in their court'

When is it going to sink in how deluded our stance is?

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