Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The beginning of the dictatorship and the end of Boris?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2017 10:55

Brexit is being fought in the UK media and parliament on the premise that the EU is being difficult and obstructive.

The fallacy can not be understated.

What the UK fails to understand is the right of the EU to put their own interests before the UKs. It doesn't under that our demands cannot be met even if the EU wanted to for practical and legal reasons - not political ones because our understanding of the situation and law is so poor.

The net result is the slippage of the next phase of Brexit talks being pushed to Christmas by the EU due to lack of progress by the UK. Barnier is open to more regular and intense talks but this is bad news for the UK with the a50 clock ticking.

The main stumbling block is NI a with Barnier warning not to use the border as a way to test EU resolve. Brexit always about the NI border. The UK have never provided a solution to the EU that does not produce a hard border. The idea being pushed by the UK will create one despite claiming it won't. The reality is the only viable solutions are either staying in the single market and customs union or NI being granted special status and being different to the rest of the country. The former is opposed by the government, the later opposed by the DUP.

The DUP are getting a taste of their own medicine. They have been warned that Assembly Members might have pay frozen and if they don't reform Stormont they won't get their Billion Pound Booty. Plus Ian Paisley Jr just found a new scandal for the party.

May is trying to channel Venezuela by getting rid of democracy when it suits. The Great Repel Bill (aka as the Withdrawal Bill) faces it's challenge. The much feared Henry VIII in clause 9 are not only facing criticism from Remainers but also from the secretive crackpots of Tory Bastard Club (aka ERG). The TBC want hard cliff edge Brexit. May seems to support given her goodwill burning interference at the Home Office which seeks to discriminate against all foreigners and make them sign a register. The visa system and how it will attract much needed staff for the NHS makes the mind boggle.

The Repel Bill also could end the possibility of transition due to clause 6 which requires us to leave the ECJ. Given the May's ambition to make EU citizens display their stars in job applications this is totally unable to the EU. If it passes the chances of transition drop dramatically. Bye bye Smooth and Orderly.

Then there is the May-Bot paradox: the one were she gives a friendly speech to the EU and a nasty on to the Swivel Eyed Loon gathering. As if neither will be reported to the other audience.

On top of this May is attempting the Parliament Rigging Act as she has a 'majority Government'. Yep I know, this is the general election version of 'will of the people'. The Rigging Act seeks to stack parliamentary committees with Tory majorities so they can stop any bill they don't like getting anywhere need the main chamber this limiting the power of opposition to irrelevant. Sadly I think this one will get through due to maths of the HoC atm.

We shouldn't forget the role of the HoL though and the lack of a majority government (why do you think May is saying majority government? It's down to the Sewell convention and trying to make the case it applies when the argument is it doesn't for a minority government).

The other development is the rumours that Boris is for the boot. And Rees-Mogg might get a promotion.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 18:00

Chris Bryant has just done a truly stunning speech in the HoC on the subject of rights.

OP posts:
woman9917 · 11/09/2017 18:05

And Hoey and Field can be on that stand too. Angry

Peregrina · 11/09/2017 18:11

legal tidal wave coming.
Which costs money, which a good many won't be able to afford.

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 18:12

I would not be surprised if the EU start providing legal aid for that somehow.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 11/09/2017 18:13

Expect the Mail, Express and Telegraph to back this Bill wholeheartedly, and start screaming about thwarting the will of the people.

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 18:16

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2017-09-07/debates/DA3CC146-F8AB-40FF-812B-FE2CADDEA2F4/EuropeanUnion(Withdrawal)Bill
Hansard from last Thursday

OP posts:
woman9917 · 11/09/2017 18:17

Labour backers of this bill are shameful. Kevin Barron is 'abstaining'.

prettybird · 11/09/2017 18:27

From David Allan Green's Twitter thread.... 13. Regulations under this section may make any provision that could be made by an Act of Parliament (including modifying this Act)."

.....so presumably, the so called safeguard of a sunset clause of the Henry VIII powers could itself be deleted extended ad infinitum Angry

Peregrina · 11/09/2017 18:34

How many Tory MPs, said to be unhappy, will rebel or abstain? At a guess, none. Maybe Ken Clarke on a good day.

They need to get the message loud and clear that if they get this on the statute book and lose the next election, this could be used against them. Despite the stitch up with the DUP the next election could be forced sooner than they wish, simply by losing their majority - a few deaths or resignations would do it.

I despair at times. Sometimes I think we are slowly changing the climate of opinion, but thenMay and cronies pull some other horror out of the hat. I hope they destroy themselves, as one or two posters think they will, but I am not holding my breath. They have a nasty habit of passing the buck to others.

woman9917 · 11/09/2017 18:36

Regulations under this section may make any provision that could be made by an Act of Parliament (including modifying this Act

A coup in plain sight.

As well as the soft tories who are voting for it in the expectation of amendments ha ha, Peregrina up to 20 labour are joining them or abstaining.

Hobhouse is good now for lib dems.

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 18:37

Labour rebels on this - to a man (or woman) - are simply stupid.

I can understand the likes of Frank Field making the argument about Brexit he does. Even though I fundamentally think he's wrong. I can get the argument about the public not being stupid for voting for Brexit.

But Hoey's comments on Thursday:

I know that lots of people want to speak, so I will end by saying one thing. I am not a lawyer, although there are a lot of lawyers in here who are loving every minute of this, because it is the kind of thing they love. However, I am not a lawyer, and the vast majority of the public are not lawyers. They will be watching today, and they will be judging all of us, whatever our party politics, on whether we are doing what is in the long-term, best interests of our country.

In quite she effectively says that its ok for her not to understand the bill because its too legally and the public aren't into the legally stuff and don't understand it either, is somewhat shameful.

This is where representation in a democracy is flawed. In order to make law, you should be capable of understanding and comprehending the law you are making.

This by its nature should mean there are people who can't be MPs as they are not smart enough to have that role and represent those who voted for them well. .

That doesn't mean the need for a law degree or even a degree. It means knowing the importance of learning the implications of something even if you are not highly educated. It equally means understanding the implications of something in spite of being educated.

Being smart comes in many different forms and different backgrounds. You do not need to be educated to be wise.

I do know several people with a very low academic achievement and are very very working class who are far far smarter than me. They make my mind boggle with their smarts.

Dismissing lawyers for understanding law is dumb. That's Hoey. In this case they are the people to listen to and not throw out comments like that.

OP posts:
prettybird · 11/09/2017 18:37

Lawyer friend whose birthday it is today is "celebrating" it today by going to Glasgow for a Law Society meeting to discuss the "exciting developments in Data Protection (and the collision between data protection and Brexit)" his words

Another lawyer friend has been involved with the Law Society's work on the legal implications of Brexit. He says the more they look at it, the more of a dog's breakfast or should that be Brexit Wink it appears. Sad

woman9917 · 11/09/2017 18:39

From Jo Maugham's What happens if talks break down.

After this bill is passed, Boris or whoever chooses departure date.

And “exit day” is defined as “such day as a Minister of the Crown may by regulations appoint.”

Yep, that’s right. The government is proposing that a Minister gets to decide when our membership of the EU ends. And to make that decision without any Parliamentary control at all. None, zip, nada.

waitingfortax.com/2017/08/31/what-happens-if-the-talks-break-down/

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 18:40

.....so presumably, the so called safeguard of a sunset clause of the Henry VIII powers could itself be deleted extended ad infinitum

Yep.

It could mean any other amendments could be pointless if just this one clause stands.

It is a coup if it passes.

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 11/09/2017 18:40

Well, despite the complete lack of reply from my MP so far, I can get something to judge them on soon enough.

We read "The Lotus Eaters" for Eng Lit. Now I realise, it was a hint ....

Peregrina · 11/09/2017 18:44

So, what do we do? It seems we can't trust a significant number of our Parliamentarians to put the good of the country first. I do hope that this legislation, if passed, backfires on the Tories and those who have sided with them. But this is small consolation.

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 18:51

It can't backfire.

They can decide that we can't have an election 'because Brexit' if it passes.

OP posts:
EternalOptimistToo · 11/09/2017 19:01

So in effect, this Bill is changing the UK from a democracy to a dictatorship.

EternalOptimistToo · 11/09/2017 19:03

YY rbt
Once this has gone through, they can do whatever they like. Incl not having elections, modifying them so that the results is always in their favour etc etc.
And I'm sure that none of the MO voting for that are voting for that to happen.
But it's opening the door wide, very wide for someone to jump at this opportunity.
And we are doing .... nothing.

History is repeating itself....

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 19:07

So in effect, this Bill is changing the UK from a democracy to a dictatorship.

Yep. In a nutshell.

That's why I say its totally fair to call anyone on the opposition benches voting for it, not understanding that it destroys the entire point of them representing their constituents, totally and utterly dumb fucks.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 19:16

Things Jeremy Corbyn could do with this law:

Take back control for parliament?
Abolish the monarchy.

Will of the people?
Remove property from individuals or companies and place into the hands of 'the people'.

Give £350 million to the NHS?
Make PFI contracts null and void.

This is why I just can not see the Tories letting there be another election if there is half a chance of Corbyn getting in with these powers in place as the bill stands without amendment.

Also the House of Lord exists to stop the would be tyrant in the commons.

If this passes, I find it difficult to believe we won't end up with a major constitutional crisis of some form.

OP posts:
EternalOptimistToo · 11/09/2017 19:21

What sort of power has the HoL to stop that?

I get what you are saying about MPs not knowing enough about legal stuff. But I don't have ANY legal background and even I can see, just from the titles, how this can be abused.
Anyone voting for that is stupid.

It also raised another question. Why is it not in the front page of all the newspapers? Not even the Independat and the Guardian? Why is the thread to our democracy not raised?
It's not good enough to have people,shouting in Twitter. Too few people will read that.
It should be the ONE subject of conversation for everyone.

TM and co have actually bing VERY good at politics. They've managed to move this in such a way that no one dares raising any issues for fear of going against the will of the people. She has a handle good enough on her party for people not to dare voting against her.

And then people are wondering why the EU are starting to take measures to protect themselves from the UK as it leaves the EU....

EternalOptimistToo · 11/09/2017 19:22

I am going to be dreaming of a major constitutional crisis from now on.

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 19:27

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/11/paddy-ashdown-lib-dems-win-back-voters?CMP=twt_gu
Paddy Ashdown says Lib Dems must become radical to regain voters
Former leader writes that party has to make itself a ‘gathering point’ for liberal centrists if it is to have a role in British politics

Mr Ashdown and the Radical Lib Dems

Not the first saying this. I'm sure won't be the last. Radical because they know they have lost their way and need something bombastic to compete with Corbyn.

(Hint Mr Pants Down: Focus on the Democracy bit of the name and trust me).

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/09/2017 19:30

Anna Turley MP@annaturley (Labour)
Can't vote tonight as had an operation yesterday linked to my illness earlier this summer. Still in hospital. Back out in a few days. A

OP posts: