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Brexit

Westminstenders: The beginning of the dictatorship and the end of Boris?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2017 10:55

Brexit is being fought in the UK media and parliament on the premise that the EU is being difficult and obstructive.

The fallacy can not be understated.

What the UK fails to understand is the right of the EU to put their own interests before the UKs. It doesn't under that our demands cannot be met even if the EU wanted to for practical and legal reasons - not political ones because our understanding of the situation and law is so poor.

The net result is the slippage of the next phase of Brexit talks being pushed to Christmas by the EU due to lack of progress by the UK. Barnier is open to more regular and intense talks but this is bad news for the UK with the a50 clock ticking.

The main stumbling block is NI a with Barnier warning not to use the border as a way to test EU resolve. Brexit always about the NI border. The UK have never provided a solution to the EU that does not produce a hard border. The idea being pushed by the UK will create one despite claiming it won't. The reality is the only viable solutions are either staying in the single market and customs union or NI being granted special status and being different to the rest of the country. The former is opposed by the government, the later opposed by the DUP.

The DUP are getting a taste of their own medicine. They have been warned that Assembly Members might have pay frozen and if they don't reform Stormont they won't get their Billion Pound Booty. Plus Ian Paisley Jr just found a new scandal for the party.

May is trying to channel Venezuela by getting rid of democracy when it suits. The Great Repel Bill (aka as the Withdrawal Bill) faces it's challenge. The much feared Henry VIII in clause 9 are not only facing criticism from Remainers but also from the secretive crackpots of Tory Bastard Club (aka ERG). The TBC want hard cliff edge Brexit. May seems to support given her goodwill burning interference at the Home Office which seeks to discriminate against all foreigners and make them sign a register. The visa system and how it will attract much needed staff for the NHS makes the mind boggle.

The Repel Bill also could end the possibility of transition due to clause 6 which requires us to leave the ECJ. Given the May's ambition to make EU citizens display their stars in job applications this is totally unable to the EU. If it passes the chances of transition drop dramatically. Bye bye Smooth and Orderly.

Then there is the May-Bot paradox: the one were she gives a friendly speech to the EU and a nasty on to the Swivel Eyed Loon gathering. As if neither will be reported to the other audience.

On top of this May is attempting the Parliament Rigging Act as she has a 'majority Government'. Yep I know, this is the general election version of 'will of the people'. The Rigging Act seeks to stack parliamentary committees with Tory majorities so they can stop any bill they don't like getting anywhere need the main chamber this limiting the power of opposition to irrelevant. Sadly I think this one will get through due to maths of the HoC atm.

We shouldn't forget the role of the HoL though and the lack of a majority government (why do you think May is saying majority government? It's down to the Sewell convention and trying to make the case it applies when the argument is it doesn't for a minority government).

The other development is the rumours that Boris is for the boot. And Rees-Mogg might get a promotion.

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Peregrina · 13/09/2017 11:24

The tide HASN'T turned yet. That's the point.

But with both high and low tides they stay fairly static for a while and then turn and once they come in or out there is no stopping them. The tide could turn. It depends on when the Leavers start to make the connections between higher prices, their foreign holidays costing more, and connecting them to the Government. Which they don't appear to be doing at the moment.

1/3 The UK has emerged as the second most influential country in the world after the US. Yet many in the UK establishment are so negative.
As usual, Deadwood is talking utter claptrap. China, Russia?

Badders08 · 13/09/2017 11:24

Even the ancient Romans knew how to keep the plebs happy...
Bread anf circuses....

TheElementsSong · 13/09/2017 11:25

Randomly You lucky things having EU passports. Grab this chance! Save yourselves! Grin

Badders08 · 13/09/2017 11:26

When should I apply for mine and dc Irish passports?
I've been putting it off...

EternalOptimistToo · 13/09/2017 11:27

YY BigChoc they will carry on scarmonging and pointing their finger at the EU.

I actually now think that, even if EU citizens were able to stay, the EU and therefore them will have been so vilified that it would be untenable for them to do so.

freshtrim · 13/09/2017 11:27

Will all children living in the UK but holding EU passports be conscripted to serve in an EU army, once UK leaves?

Peregrina · 13/09/2017 11:28

Too much of the 'keep calm and keep going' attitude too that gently pushes people to keep their head down and accept anything 'because you can't do anything about it so bother fighting'

Yes, a wartime slogan. Another time when General Elections were suspended. But when they did hold an Election in 1945, Churchill was booted out with a vengeance. People had had enough after six years. I believe it completely took the Establishment by surprise.

EternalOptimistToo · 13/09/2017 11:32

fresh how many countries in the EU still have conscripted army?
France for one has stopped that not so long ago.
They stopped because the army now is one of specialised people with specific and technical skills. Not a random guy from the street there for a year or so.
Using conscripts is too expensive and not efficient.
I can't see the EU using conscripts either, for exactly the same reasons....

RandomlyGenerated · 13/09/2017 11:33

Badders do it now - it is straightforward (the instructions are reasonably clear) and ours took a few weeks. You can log into the Irish passport site and track progress.

LurkingHusband · 13/09/2017 11:34

Will all children living in the UK but holding EU passports be conscripted to serve in an EU army, once UK leaves?

I had to go to my other countries embassy in the 80s to ensure that my name (and my DBs names) were definitely not on the list of AWOL conscripts from national service. Turned out they were and had we tried to visit we would have been arrested. (bearing in mind the UK explicitly washes it's hands of any obligations of dual citizenship). Somewhere in a tin, is the certificate of exemption ... must dig it out.

National Service is abolished there (along with the penalties for going AWOL). I wonder if any other EU countries still have it ?

HashiAsLarry · 13/09/2017 11:35

I need to find someone to sign my dcs Irish birth register forms. It's far easier to get a signatory for a uk one, ROI are far more strict. Sad

RandomlyGenerated · 13/09/2017 11:40

Hashi will a solicitor notarise the forms for you?

LurkingHusband · 13/09/2017 11:42

EternalOptimistToo

X-post Smile

Using conscripts is too expensive and not efficient.

Actually - despite being as hippy liberal as they come (hold my tofu) I could get behind a form of National Service

At Uni I shared with a Nigerian (lovely guy). When we went out separate ways, I asked him what he was doing.

"I have to go back to Nigeria, and do my National Service", he said, gravely. I was a bit taken aback, and said I couldn't imagine him with a gun. He laughed and said "No. In Nigeria, if you go to University, then you have to come back and work for the government for two years to pay for your learning."

Ever since then, I've had an idea that some form of "civic service" which people are required to undertake after the highest level of education they can attain might be a Good Thing ? Keep the idea of barracking conscripts in mixed up groups (great way to expose people to their fellow citizens) with fitness, discipline and catch-up learning. In return, all and any debts from learning are wiped out.

Not really my place to answer, but I wonder how many people carrying a £27,000+ loan would swap it for a year working for the government on one of those projects we never seem to have money for ????

Unicornridinghat · 13/09/2017 11:54

"I actually now think that, even if EU citizens were able to stay, the EU and therefore them will have been so vilified that it would be untenable for them to do so."

Delurking.

I worry about this too. Dh, dc and I have dual citizenship. DC was born here, DH and moved here a couple of decades ago. But we are clearly a EU family. I worry that we will be discriminated against or experience hostility if when Brexit negotiations turn sour. Whilst holding British passport will protect us against being deported, our European identities might be held against us.

prettybird · 13/09/2017 11:57

Redwood is fuckin' deluded genuinely believes that Hmm

It's the sort of attitude - that the UK is still one of the most important countries in the world - that has got us into this fine mess SadAngry

That and disparaging "experts" like CEOs and senior lawyers. Shock

He certainly managed a hat-trick of Daily Mailisms in his 3 tweets Wink

HashiAsLarry · 13/09/2017 11:58

Not really my place to answer, but I wonder how many people carrying a £27,000+ loan would swap it for a year working for the government on one of those projects we never seem to have money for ????
I'd have done it. If nothing else you get some project working experience to go on what may have been an otherwise blank cv.

random I think we're going to go down that route. Been trying to avoid it as more costs, but the option being open to the dc is massively important to dh and I.

Peregrina · 13/09/2017 11:58

I believe Germany used to have a civic service type option instead of joining the military.

LurkingHusband · 13/09/2017 12:06

More evidence that the UK government hasn't got a fucking clue:

www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/13/cbi_pushes_ukgov_to_act_fast_to_get_postbrexit_data_deal/

What are the chances ? Zero, is my guess.

RandomlyGenerated · 13/09/2017 12:20

Does Greece still have military service? I remember Greek students at uni spinning out PhDs to avoid going back to do service in the early 1990s.

Peregrina · 13/09/2017 12:30

Info on Conscription

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2017 12:33

David Allen Green‏*@davidallengreen*
For anyone who says that wide-ranging laws will always be used strictly for their intended purpose, two words:

terrorism legislation

Watch out for 'national citizenship service' coming. It will.

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EternalOptimistToo · 13/09/2017 12:37

What would be the point of a 'national citizenship service' red?

EternalOptimistToo · 13/09/2017 12:39

Unicorn yes, DH is British, dcs have a dual citizenship. I'm from the EU.
I have started all the paperwork to get the British citizenship. As yuou say, itnwill protect me to avoid deportation (so to be able to stay with the dcs). But I don't think it will protect me from anything else.
Nearly 20 years here and one of the first question i get asked is 'where are you coming form?'
That's not going to change and British isn't going to cut it either.

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2017 12:57

It pleases the old farts who say that young people don't respect authority enough.

Under the name 'citizenship' its less militaristic, but is still about this idea of British patriotism and values. Put simply its more cuddly and easier to sell for a PR company.

The Tories also are looking for someway to counter the left wing student movement. It would be good way to do that. It has potential to be a right wing vehicle. Of course people who dodge it, or otherwise don't do it, get vilified and almost 'blacklisted' in a way that is 'legitimate'. It 'proves' the 'lazy young' bollocks.

It might well work for a certain part of British Society but for many others it will be quite the opposite and as a whole we'd be better served with a different scheme. As I say this one will be politically exploited.

I'd be more surprised if we didn't get this put forward as a serious policy soon.

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BigChocFrenzy · 13/09/2017 12:58

Back when Germany had conscription, there was a civil option instead, which was usually more years, but often in a reserve

e.g. my first German teacher was a reserve fireman, but would only be called in for a mass emergency, to back up the regular firefighters
He received training, but he never had to attend any real incident
iirc, his reserve service - being much less onerous than serving in the military - lasted 5 years