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Brexit

Westminstenders: The beginning of the dictatorship and the end of Boris?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2017 10:55

Brexit is being fought in the UK media and parliament on the premise that the EU is being difficult and obstructive.

The fallacy can not be understated.

What the UK fails to understand is the right of the EU to put their own interests before the UKs. It doesn't under that our demands cannot be met even if the EU wanted to for practical and legal reasons - not political ones because our understanding of the situation and law is so poor.

The net result is the slippage of the next phase of Brexit talks being pushed to Christmas by the EU due to lack of progress by the UK. Barnier is open to more regular and intense talks but this is bad news for the UK with the a50 clock ticking.

The main stumbling block is NI a with Barnier warning not to use the border as a way to test EU resolve. Brexit always about the NI border. The UK have never provided a solution to the EU that does not produce a hard border. The idea being pushed by the UK will create one despite claiming it won't. The reality is the only viable solutions are either staying in the single market and customs union or NI being granted special status and being different to the rest of the country. The former is opposed by the government, the later opposed by the DUP.

The DUP are getting a taste of their own medicine. They have been warned that Assembly Members might have pay frozen and if they don't reform Stormont they won't get their Billion Pound Booty. Plus Ian Paisley Jr just found a new scandal for the party.

May is trying to channel Venezuela by getting rid of democracy when it suits. The Great Repel Bill (aka as the Withdrawal Bill) faces it's challenge. The much feared Henry VIII in clause 9 are not only facing criticism from Remainers but also from the secretive crackpots of Tory Bastard Club (aka ERG). The TBC want hard cliff edge Brexit. May seems to support given her goodwill burning interference at the Home Office which seeks to discriminate against all foreigners and make them sign a register. The visa system and how it will attract much needed staff for the NHS makes the mind boggle.

The Repel Bill also could end the possibility of transition due to clause 6 which requires us to leave the ECJ. Given the May's ambition to make EU citizens display their stars in job applications this is totally unable to the EU. If it passes the chances of transition drop dramatically. Bye bye Smooth and Orderly.

Then there is the May-Bot paradox: the one were she gives a friendly speech to the EU and a nasty on to the Swivel Eyed Loon gathering. As if neither will be reported to the other audience.

On top of this May is attempting the Parliament Rigging Act as she has a 'majority Government'. Yep I know, this is the general election version of 'will of the people'. The Rigging Act seeks to stack parliamentary committees with Tory majorities so they can stop any bill they don't like getting anywhere need the main chamber this limiting the power of opposition to irrelevant. Sadly I think this one will get through due to maths of the HoC atm.

We shouldn't forget the role of the HoL though and the lack of a majority government (why do you think May is saying majority government? It's down to the Sewell convention and trying to make the case it applies when the argument is it doesn't for a minority government).

The other development is the rumours that Boris is for the boot. And Rees-Mogg might get a promotion.

OP posts:
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LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 11:18

Hmmm

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41233257

Prime Minister Theresa May has phoned US President Donald Trump over a threat to jobs at Bombardier in Belfast from a trade dispute.

In 2016, Canadian firm Bombardier won an order to supply up to 125 CSeries passenger jets to US airline Delta.

The wings for the CSeries are made at Bombardier's Belfast plant.

However, rival aircraft firm Boeing has complained to the US authorities that the deal was unfairly subsidised by the Canadian state.

Boeing has also complained about a UK government loan made to the Bombardier plant in Belfast.

The US Department of Commerce is due to make a ruling later this month.

It could hit Bombardier with punitive tariffs

(contd) ...

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 11:20

I am quite shocked to see Dennis Skinner voting with the Tories. I don't agree with his politics but believed him to be a man of integrity, and unlike Kate Hoey, one who does do his homework on what he's voting for. Does he really want May to have the power to cancel General Elections if she feels like it? An abstention would have been better for him.

alternative view:

Politician acts like politician. News to follow ....

DrivenToDespair · 12/09/2017 11:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scaryclown · 12/09/2017 11:40

If Labour are sensible, they'll vote for raised government powers. When they get in, which is coming, they'll be more easily able to overturn this bullshit.

Peregrina · 12/09/2017 11:45

Politician acts like politician. News to follow ....
Maybe, but I would have said that Skinner was one of the more principled ones. I am genuinely shocked that he could even think of walking through a Tory lobby - a convenient bout of sickness would have been in order.

Peregrina · 12/09/2017 11:50

When they get in, which is coming, they'll be more easily able to overturn this bullshit.

I am not counting any chickens yet. May could easily abolish elections.

Just think what Labour could do with Henry VIII powers - renationalise the railways, give the CEOs and their exorbitant pay of Multi-Academy Trusts the boot......

EternalOptimistToo · 12/09/2017 11:56

Driven very interesting article!

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 12:10

Just think what Labour could do with Henry VIII powers - renationalise the railways, give the CEOs and their exorbitant pay of Multi-Academy Trusts the boot......

I have thought (and said as much) many times that the prize of absolute power is too great for any politician to be able to act sensibly.

I am worried that Corbyn is thinking exactly that.

What's the term for the conceit that this person won' be corrupted by power ... the noble something ?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

HashiAsLarry · 12/09/2017 12:13

Very interesting driven
As it's 10 years since Northern Rock collapsed, that and the article reminds me of a deep discussion I had IRL. I argued that the financial crisis of 10 years ago seems to be seen and felt in much the same way as the Great Depression, and in someways it probably shouldn't be a surprise that we are seeing a resurgence of similar politics.
If you don't know and refuse to learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it.

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 12:24

If you don't know and refuse to learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it.

More accurately, if you don't know, and refuse to learn from history, you are at the mercy of people who do.

There's no way the intelligentsia of Brexit (which isn't the people who voted for it, obviously) are ignorant of history. They are very, very clued up on it.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/09/2017 12:39

While UK newspapers are mostly failing miserably to give the facts or decent analysis,
the US public is better served wrt Brexit:

All the worst lies about Brexit are about to be revealed

< we hope, in time >

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/all-the-worst-lies-about-brexit-are-about-to-be-revealed/2017/09/08/4bf9d43a-9410-11e7-8754-d478688d23b4story.html?utmm_term=.d65f3e91b199

DrivenToDespair · 12/09/2017 12:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MsHooliesCardigan · 12/09/2017 12:51

LH I posted on that school uniform thread that if Rosa Parks had posted about it BU to make black people sit at the back of the bus, some posters would have said 'but those are the RULES!!!'
It's frighteningly reminiscent of 'We were only obeying orders'.

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 12/09/2017 13:03

Yeah I had all this on my Facebook feed. My old school made the news for sending kids home who were wearing marginally deviant shoes. The few people who opined that these kids' learning, or that of their peers, was unlikely to have been affected if they had been allowed to stay were drowned out by 'If these parents can't understand the RULES then it's them that should go back to school'.

Having gone to school with some of the said parents, I can confirm that they were serial uniform rule breakers themselves. I do believe some people ever forget they were young. (See also threads about the interminable summer holidays. Bet they were raring to go back when they were at school).

I digress.

I vaguely seem to recall that there is some parliamentary reason why allowing a bill to go through on its first reading increases your chance of making substantial amendments, but I forget what it is and I'm not even sure it's true. Your friends from the centre used it to justify Labour's abstention on the welfare bill, so someone who knows more about the processes than me can perhaps explain.

BiglyBadgers · 12/09/2017 13:06

I am worried that Corbyn is thinking exactly that.

Corbyn did whip to vote against the bill, so I think suggesting he secretly wants it to pass so he can claim absolute power is pushing it a bit. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one at least.

TheElementsSong · 12/09/2017 13:27

Wikipedia article on the Enabling Act

It is so depressing, isn't it? Not surprised you're feeling DrivenToDespair Sad

lalalonglegs · 12/09/2017 14:49

Driven - I visited Berlin earlier this year and went on a guided tour led by a German woman who spoke a bit about the rise of Hitler. It sent chills down my spine: Berlin, a tolerant and liberal city was othered as elitist and out of touch; the Nazis claiming that what they were doing was to serve the German people and what they wanted; the power grabs; the denigration of education and book learning. And that's before we get onto the treatment of foreigners and "Enemies of the People/Citizens of Nowhere" schtick. It was almost as if she was trying to make parallels with the current situation in the UK but we were a very international crowd and I don't think it had occurred to her.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2017 15:27

The old saying about more than one way to skin a cat seems to be in play here ?

This.

I'm not too worried at this stage. The big votes are the ones relating to amendments. Tory Remainers are outwardly putting on a united front in public. The real battle is going on in backrooms of Westminster.

OP posts:
woman11017 · 12/09/2017 15:29

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/stopbrexit-national-march-manchester-tickets-36597030704

Meanwhile, I'm wearing my new name.

It's Manchester; the music's going to be awesome.

Smile
LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 15:40

The rise of the Nazis has a terrible fascination, but needs to be studied.

My take home messages were:

  1. a sentiment that the German people had been betrayed in WW1 and in particular the surrender.
  2. the rest of Europe was quite happy to see Germany ground into the dust with the Weimar inflation crisis
  3. a desire to apportion blame away from Germany ... oh look, it's Jews hiding behind Bolsheviks

all created a perfect storm waiting for someone to "tell it like it was"

enter A. Hitler, National Socialism and "taking back control".

So, which UK politician has been "pushed so far into a corner they'll squeak" ?

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 15:41

It's Manchester; the music's going to be awesome.

Or, it could be The Smiths ?

hanahsaunt · 12/09/2017 15:53

I find it quite sinister that the public sector pay cap has been lifted only for law enforcement. Who do they want to buy off/ keep on side / have a hold over... not hospital porters or teaching assistants or any one else; just police officers and the prison service. I don't like it.

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 16:01

I find it quite sinister that the public sector pay cap has been lifted only for law enforcement.

The Tories would rather pay the police a few quid extra to protect them from rioting nurses, than pay the nurses extra.

Miners strike, anyone ?

woman11017 · 12/09/2017 16:01

@DavidLammy
Just signed amendments to EU Withdrawal Bill protecting our membership of Single Market and Customs Union and limiting executive power grab

I am looking forward to Prime Minister Lammy.

There's talk of JC's successor. Wink

LurkingHusband · 12/09/2017 16:02

I think we can safely assume we now know where the DUP money came from

www.thecanary.co/2017/09/08/tories-just-lost-1bn-charity-money-back-sofa/

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