Has anybody changed their mind about how they voted?

[fakenamefornow]

It seems not many people have?

And give the EU its more accurate name - "The Fourth Reich"

"The Fourth Reich"

Gosh, I bet that sounds cleverer and cleverer, and more and more convincing, every time you type it.

elements

@manwhohasitall

TODAY'S QUESTION: Is there any point trying to have a rational discussion with an American boy?

A tolerant, fair, welcoming, democratic nation with fairness and decency at its core...attracting migrants from all over the globe.

...whose Foreign Secretary talks about 'piccaninnies', whose MEPs talk about 'bongo bongo land' and whose Home Secretary wanted a register of foreign born workers.

The UK is far more welcoming and tolerant of immigrants than France. It's interesting that the biggest blocker to Frankfurt taking FS and FM business from London is that it is so hard to persuade people to move there.

I work with a global company right now who have their global HQ in Dublin (and a total of 35 staff based there) but the CEO, EC and 3000 staff are based in their UK subsidiary. Hmm

@manwhohasitall

TODAY'S DEBATE: Why won't men just shut up?

As an immigrant in France I think I am qualified to comment on this.

France is not especially tolerant of immigrants from Africa and the Middle East, who face a lot of racism (more than in the UK, although the UK doesn't get a free pass on this either). It is more tolerant than the UK of its EU immigrants, of whom I am one. EU immigration is mostly a non-story here, although there are probably pockets of resentment in villages which have been overrun by English speaking migrants who in many cases make no effort to learn the language and little effort to integrate.

I'm really surprised to read that France are generally intolerant of African and Middle Eastern immigrants.

France is more tolerant than the UK of its EU immigrants

Probably because the net flow is in the "tens of thousands"

www.thelocal.fr/20151013/some-truths-about-migration-to-and-from-france

The migration of North Africans to France has a very different history than the one in the UK though, because of France's colonial past. In my limited experience, I agree with Mistigri that France is less tolerant of immigrants from the middle east and northern Africa, however, England's intolerance is more 'contained', ie talked about behind closed doors. It does come out though on occasion, and it is pretty obvious here in the last year or so.

I am really not sure that the relation between intolerance has a direct relation to number of migrants. In the UK some of the regions that have the least number of migrants are the least tolerant - and some of the areas where there are many migrants are the most tolerant. We have seen this statistical trend during the referendum debate.

Intolerance of 'incomers' is not a British thing, or a small town thing or specific to any country or region though - it's inevitable to some degree anywhere.

If somewhere has a quick change, people take time to adjust (not in any way suggesting 'all' people, but rather generalised 'people')

Back in the 50s & 60s the bigger British cities experienced large amounts of immigrants & there was the 'no Irish, blacks or dogs' thing.
Now, it's just the norm that there is a big melting pot - the adjustment was made & people were born into & grew up in the new normal, so it is their normal now & immigrants are just part of the furniture so to speak.

The smaller towns & more rural areas saw rapid change following Tony Blair allowing ungraduated migration in the 2000s, so the resistance & discomfort was inevitable as people saw, experienced or perceived huge change.
This too has started to settle & is now the norm for younger people growing up - but is still quite recent so it has not completely bedded in yet as a norm for all.

It's therefore not really surprising that the areas with higher numbers of immigration are more tolerant, as 'incomers' are entirely normal & usual; the areas that are displaying a backlash may have had lower numbers in comparison, but they were not 'used to' immigration in the way that the bigger, more cosmopolitan areas were.

There is intolerance to immigrants all over the world - including throughout the other EU countries, as well as Britain.
It's not a uniquely British phenomenon by any means.

Couldn't agree more Faith. well put.

I remain utterly baffled as to why it is racist to worry about the effect of high levels of immigration on a society, and in particular small towns.

That this debate was silenced is why the Leave vote won. People felt they had nowhere to go.

It's not racist, no. However it is quite stupid if people hadn't worked out that our country needs immigrants- our farming, our service, our care industry and our NHS are all carried by immigrants. And it is fairly stupid if people voted brexit because they don't like immigrants- we're just going to have to very expensively invite in more people from elsewhere. And it was quite stupid, imho, to prioritise your worry over immigration over the stability of the economy for the next 20 years. We are all going to struggle because of your fear of agata, the gp from Warsaw...

But anyway, many brexiteers on mn like to deny immigration had any part at all in their decision to vote leave so I think you might be barking up the wrong tree with your theory.

To be fair histiny there's been plenty of Brexitiers posting that have admitted immigration was a factor in their vote. Maybe you missed their posts.

Honestly, many - like you!- have said it's not a factor, Or - like cocory- they feel being in the eu favours white immigrants and they want more immigration from Africa and Asia.

I'm also intrigued that any debate over immigration was silenced. The mail (and other papers) have been bashing immigrants for years. Don't they count?

The mail (and other papers) have been bashing immigrants for years. Don't they count?

Not as a debate.

well I don't think we can say debate was 'silenced' if two of the most-read papers in the country were freely bashing immigrants daily.

Voted remain.

Remain passionate that membership of the EU is the best option for the UK, with medium term goal to shape it to suit our preferred outsider status (I.e. explore two speed integration).

The Brexit process has turned out exactly as I feared, probably worse. How anyone can look at the northern Ireland border impacts and not think "fuck this, this is a fucking disaster" I dunno. And the rest.

On the plus side have become political activist since the vote, as I can't just let this happen to this country

Exit from Brexit would be just lovely

I said loads of times I voted leave because of F.O.M / immigration. Just like 1000's of other people. It wasn't the only reason but it was up there in my top 3.
So what?

histiny I'm not sure I follow. There have been several posters over the months who have openly stated they had an issue with the current state of immigration on these boards. If I could be arsed to advance search I would.
You've listed myself and one other poster who have said they don't have an issue with immigration; I'm not a liar and I don't think for one minute Cocory is either.

If you're insinuating otherwise, just own it and say so.

Eh, I said many (not all) leavers on mn (maybe not in rl) said immigration was not a factor. I named you two as an example only because you're on this thread. ive been on these boards throughout the ref and there were posters who wanted a Norwegian model for example - or a vote against Cameron/Torres or saying it was an anti globalisation vote and now I'm in the wrong for saying it?

Blimey.

In rl however most leavers I know are more like surfer jet. Several told me they were voting brexit because of the Muslims.

Ah ok, my apologies, that was rather spikey of me, sorry. I shouldn't have snapped at you like that.

I remember a fair amount of posters who were against FoM during the run up to the referendum; not many leavers seem to post now though.

Brexit is the hysterical left's fault. They screamed 'racist' anytime someone dared say they had an issue with immigration - they tried to shutdown debate but got Brexit instead.
You have to laugh.