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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wrong homework

999 replies

HashiAsLarry · 31/08/2017 21:49

I'm no rtb but I'll give it a shot, though her efforts deserve much more than me.

The August negotiation round has, well, fizzled out in much the same way as any other. It's taken over a year to get to written position papers and there's still no clue as to a direction from the UK government.

Japan, meanwhile, is about to sign off on a deal with the EU. A deal we want to copy.

@faisalislam
^but if post brexit britain's trade deal with third biggest economy in world is to be based on Brussels' deal, what about rest? TTIP? Canada?
...when PM signs off statements like this on primacy of EU-third party deals, one wonders how temporary the temporary customs union will be^

The NHS is now launching a drive to recruit foreign GPs, like the ones that have left thanks to Brexit. It's a good job they'll be £350m a week better off now. Oh hang on...

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Peregrina · 06/09/2017 09:52

Frank Field was a Leaver which rather colours my opinion of him.
When he said:
“If we’d had this policy at the last election, Labour would have romped home.” “It would have given employment opportunities to huge swaths of younger unemployed or casual workers." I just thought that the man was talking complete nonsense. Where are the swathes of younger unemployed and casual workers? We have full employment in this country. The problem we need to tackle there is insecure work. We then have an aging population. I suppose I could be pulled out of retirement to pick fruit, but physically I think I would only last a couple of days. The same could be said for most of my contemporaries - this is when we are not doing turns looking after grandchildren or propping up charities via voluntary work.

Motheroffourdragons · 06/09/2017 09:56

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BiglyBadgers · 06/09/2017 09:58

Hashi - surely his views are too outdated to get himself to prime minister. clutching at straws

But from recent posts I notice we all love Merkel, who voted against gay marriage be legalised (I'm afraid she can only get so much credit for giving a free vote) and though I can't find much on her views on abortions I suspect they are not fervently pro-choice. It seems that apparently these we views alone are not enough to make someone completely unpalatable to the liberal left.

HashiAsLarry · 06/09/2017 10:02

bigly I personally feel that politicians are human and will have different opinions on things. They difference is how they deal with it and whether they use their power to enforce those views onto others. Merkel allowed her party a free vote on the matter, which I think is only right. I'm not sure I could see JRM doing the same.

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PattyPenguin · 06/09/2017 10:06

Travelling, but not settling or working, is a pretty major change to CTA.

Indeed, as the Government knows full well, or should do, if anyone bothers to read Commons research papers.
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7661/CBP-7661.pdf
E.g. this passage
"A third factor underlying common travel area arrangements is that these favour the free movement of labour. For most of the period since 1922, that meant movement of Irish workers to Great Britain."

Motheroffourdragons · 06/09/2017 10:06

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RedToothBrush · 06/09/2017 10:09

Just reading the Conservative Home Election Audit blog posts:

www.conservativehome.com/majority_conservatism/2017/09/our-cchq-election-audit-the-rusty-machine-part-one-why-the-operation-that-succeeded-in-2015-failed-in-2017.html
Our CCHQ election audit: the rusty machine, part one. Why the operation that succeeded in 2015 failed in 2017.

www.conservativehome.com/majority_conservatism/2017/09/our-cchq-election-audit-the-rusty-machine-part-two-how-and-why-the-ground-campaign-failed.html
Our CCHQ election audit: the rusty machine, part two. How and why the ground campaign failed.

This from part two is HILAROUS given Brexit:

Unfortunately, this also fell victim to the genuine surprise of the snap election. The relatively few companies capable of printing such large quantities at such short notice would be more than happy to take the job on, they said, except for one thing. There wasn’t sufficient paper stockpiled in the country to print what the Conservative campaign bosses were asking for – more would have to be shipped in. This was a reply that nobody had foreseen.

(Ponders a no deal exit and whether the Daily Mail will have enough paper stockpiled in the country).

The article is full of jaw droppers to be honest, and worth reading:

When they did get the chance to talk, the canvassing scripts were less than ideal. They hammered home the messages – “Theresa May’s candidate”, “strong and stable”, “coalition of chaos” – to a degree that made those trying to use them cringe, and spurred negative responses from voters who felt they were talking to a robot. The scripts insisted on rating Voting Intention on a scale of one-to-ten, something useful to a data modeller but alien to how voters actually think of their intentions. “The canvass script doesn’t work. I haven’t met any sentient being that used it,” an experienced MP told me afterwards. Many activists simply ditched it entirely.

Tory HQ didn't think voters were 'sentient beings'!

Then came the final insults.

Overnight, the CCHQ email system delivered thousands of emails to members and activists around the country, urging them to come and help to Get Out The Vote in battleground constituencies. “We predict a lot of seats are going to be very tight,” one declared, “…every vote really does count.” Sent during polling day, a failure to properly check that their system was delivering mass emails swiftly and promptly meant that these messages were landing at three, four and five in the morning of Friday 9th June. Those still awake, watching the results come, in felt their horror turning to anger. Those who opened their inboxes at work the following morning felt that it was final reminder from CCHQ of a chaotic and mishandled campaign.

and this is quite shocking:

“The whole candidate process was dreadful,” admits a senior Parliamentarian, and draws an unflattering comparison with the enthusiasm of the Corbynite grassroots: “It’s hard to avoid the conclusion that creating an actual mass movement in which people have some control has a potential benefit.” Ruefully, he adds that the modern Conservative Party is “almost a structure set up to discourage participation. It’s not something you can love anymore – it’s something you fear because it’s a totalitarian state.”

Anger among the grassroots over the whole experience seems unlikely to fade. “We are tired of working our arses off for a party that hates its members,” one writes, a blunt summary of low morale that I have heard echoed again and again.

LurkingHusband · 06/09/2017 10:09

I can also attest that Glaswegian is in fact unintelligible to most English speakers

Yawal need taow git yawsel downt' black countri ....

BiglyBadgers · 06/09/2017 10:10

Hmm...as much as I like Merkel in many ways I think on this one I can't agree. If we are going to say JRM should not be prime minister because of his views than we should be similarly critical of Merkel. I also sort of suspect that a large part of the reason she allowed the free vote was because she knew it would not go down well if she didn't. It seemeda politically astute, best of both worlds solution to me, but hardly let's her off the hook.

BiglyBadgers · 06/09/2017 10:10

That was to Hashi btw. So much posting!

RandomlyGenerated · 06/09/2017 10:13

mother and howabout - Glaswegian I can manage, but I still really struggle with full-on Peterhead. Even that BBC programme on fisherman from Peterhead and the Broch was subtitled.

HashiAsLarry · 06/09/2017 10:15

Ah but bigly I'm not saying JRM shouldn't be the next Tory leader. Nor the next pm if they manage to somehow get elected again.

My point was the mock outrage levelled at the likes of Farron won't be applied to JRM because, as a Tory, it's 'acceptable' for him to hold such views.

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RedToothBrush · 06/09/2017 10:15

Remember this?

Its like, no one said Brexit would be easy.

Its not aging well.

Westminstenders: The wrong homework
howabout · 06/09/2017 10:16

Hashi that is a ref to "EU citizens" not UK or Irish citizens which is what the CTA applies to.

Motheroffourdragons · 06/09/2017 10:17

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RedToothBrush · 06/09/2017 10:28

Have Tim Farron or Angela Merkel ever voiced the opinion that they are opposed to ALL abortions including in cases where a woman has been raped (including incest)?

I find voicing such views openly and in the manner Mogg has - almost proudly - disturbing. Its not just that he has these views.

Peregrina · 06/09/2017 10:32

I suspect, when it comes down to it, that Rees-Mogg is too RC for the Tory establishment. Tony Blair, Tory Lite, didnt' convert to Catholicism until after he left office. I am not sure if we have ever had a Catholic PM? I am happy to be enlightened.

HashiAsLarry · 06/09/2017 10:33

Irish citizens are EU citizens and will continue to be.
The world has changed since the last iteration of CTA, and like everything brexit related, it isn't as simple as just rolling it back.
The claim that Irish citizens won't lose rights is false too, as they have more rights under EU than the UK is offering.

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RedToothBrush · 06/09/2017 10:35

John Springford‏*@JohnSpringford*
There are several reasons why the EU will not accept the UK's migration proposals in the transition.
EU has made clear that, if UK wants to avoid a cliff-edge exit from single market and customs union, all free movement rules must apply.
The document demands that EU citizens register, while UK citizens do not have to do so, violating non-discrimination rules.
The document says that high-skilled workers will have better status than 'low-skilled', which discriminates between EU citizens.
And the document imposes the same income threshold on EU cits bringing in non-EEA spouses as UK citizens, violating free movement rules.
So, these proposals are not compatible with avoiding a cliff-edge, as they amount to yet more demands for cake.

www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/patients-say-they-feel-unsafe-because-there-arent-enough?utm_term=.pmk6BpYEgd#.tq958l0q1O
Patients Say They Feel Unsafe Because There Aren't Enough Nurses
The Royal College of Nursing says people believe nursing staff shortages are compromising patient safety, and that paying them more would help boost numbers.

You can't pay more to boost numbers if there aren't the sufficient number of trained nurses available or if they aren't bothered about the pay because the visa is more off putting.

Corcory · 06/09/2017 10:40

I had forgotten about JRM's views on abortion, gay marriage etc. He is a complete no no in my view.

I hope that the idea that EU citizens can come here but only for a limited time I my view is a non starter. If you need people you have to accept them and their family and not make it more difficult for them to want to come. After all a lot of people are thinking twice as our exchange rate is much lower so we will have to think of making us reasonably attractive not unattractive surely.

SwedishEdith · 06/09/2017 10:57

I am not sure if we have ever had a Catholic PM? I am happy to be enlightened.

I'm pretty sure, we haven't. Remember, we've only recently allowed Catholics to marry royalty.

"Prince George is the first royal in 300 years to be born with the right to marry a Catholic."

www.channel4.com/news/british-royal-family-other-religions-same-sex-marriage

HashiAsLarry · 06/09/2017 11:06

When trying to check about catholic PMs (didn't think there had but remembered something about a supposed Jewish one - Disraeli who's family converted when he was young), I cam across this story.

TM first catholic PM according to Gove

Now, this has been reported in a few places and Im not sure how reliable it is, but bloody hilarious the stuff that may get said by politicians when out of favour (as Gove was at the time) Grin

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RedToothBrush · 06/09/2017 11:06

tony nog‏**@tony**_nog

  1. Thread - UK negotiating with itself The comment below sums up #Brexit perfectly. For months the UK has been talking to itself
  2. Tory party is negotiating with itself & tabloid press. Labour has been arguing with itself over its actual position re SM & CU
  3. Both Labour & Tories have put forward variations of the same cake & eat it #Brexit (all the goodies without FoM) without reference to EU
  4. we've started the clock & had a GE. The Tories fret over the next leader whilst Labour "campaigns", like we had all the time in the world
  5. actually talking to the EU is tricky though. All the illusions collapse, our weak hand is exposed and the need for reality surfaces
  6. Negotiating with the EU is hard, it's much easier to keep the negotiations inside the UK where fake positions can be developed & argued
  7. far easier for Labour & Cons to argue over which of their Brexits is better without getting the EU involved in validating them
  8. Perhaps this is a unique British problem. Many in the UK seems genuinely ignorant that the EU27 also has a view on Brexit
  9. There is an assumption by many that when we work out what we want, the EU will probably want it as well, because it "makes sense"
  10. Perhaps 1 in 10 people (MPs included) will look at the below and think "actually, that might not go down well with our neighbours"

The determination to end free movement from day one and drive down lower skilled EU migration, end the role of the European court of justice in family migration and extend elements of Theresa May's "hostile environment" measures to long-term EU migrants without residence permits is likely to please hard Brexiters.

tony nog‏**@tony**_nog
11) We're outraged at the "Education" comment, but utterly complacent about the hostile UK headlines being read on the continental mainland
12) Most of all, many in the UK think it's the EU being "inflexible" & cannot understand that Barnier has to get a deal past 27 countries
13) 27 countries who will all feel slighted by the UK and who will have their own populations hostile to a "sweetheart" deal for the UK
14) 27 populations, many of whom do very little trade with us but will have their own hardliners saying "They want to leave, let them"
15) No politician in the EU27 will lose their seat if there's no deal
No-one in the EU will blame Barnier
Politically, they are bulletproof
16) If the UK doesn't stop talking to itself and instead actually talks properly to the other side, we're done & we'll be out with nothing
17) on Brexit,surely no nation in EU history has been more insular, self obsessed & unaware of how they appear outside their borders
end/

RedToothBrush · 06/09/2017 11:10

Sunny Hundal‏*@sunny*_hundal

I'd almost forgotten I once exposed how Jacob Rees-Mogg was 'guest of honour' at a group that wanted to send back black & Asian Britons

BigChocFrenzy · 06/09/2017 11:16

Astonishing if we've had no Catholic PM - in the 1860s we had a Jewish PM Disraeli (ok, he'd converted to CofE)

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