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Brexit

Westminstenders: The wrong homework

999 replies

HashiAsLarry · 31/08/2017 21:49

I'm no rtb but I'll give it a shot, though her efforts deserve much more than me.

The August negotiation round has, well, fizzled out in much the same way as any other. It's taken over a year to get to written position papers and there's still no clue as to a direction from the UK government.

Japan, meanwhile, is about to sign off on a deal with the EU. A deal we want to copy.

@faisalislam
^but if post brexit britain's trade deal with third biggest economy in world is to be based on Brussels' deal, what about rest? TTIP? Canada?
...when PM signs off statements like this on primacy of EU-third party deals, one wonders how temporary the temporary customs union will be^

The NHS is now launching a drive to recruit foreign GPs, like the ones that have left thanks to Brexit. It's a good job they'll be £350m a week better off now. Oh hang on...

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Peregrina · 05/09/2017 09:21

I don't expect a rebellion either. They can afford it even less now than before the election with a resurgent Labour party. I expect lots of fine words, and then see them dutifully troupe through the Govt. lobby.

LurkingHusband · 05/09/2017 09:21

Rebellion can just be abstaining. And if it comes to not voting, there are a myriad innocent reasons why an MP might suddenly find themselves unable to vote.

If I were a backbench Tory MP, I'd make damn sure my support got me as much personally as possible. That's a potential 250+ deals the whips will have to manage.

prettybird · 05/09/2017 09:22

I have a fear that history will review this period with ShockShockShock at the way our MPs (Labour as well as Conservative) continued to act like lemmings in the face of all the warnings to take the UK off the cliff edge. Sad

Peregrina · 05/09/2017 09:28

I agree with you prettybird. Will historians see this as the final nail in the coffin of a once powerful empire on which the sun never set, and in 200 - 300 years time, children will find it hard to believe that a tiny poor island off the coast of Europe was once so great?

TheElementsSong · 05/09/2017 09:41

Will historians see this as the final nail in the coffin of a once powerful empire on which the sun never set, and in 200 - 300 years time, children will find it hard to believe that a tiny poor island off the coast of Europe was once so great?

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

howabout · 05/09/2017 09:45

Bigly this is the ONS report the graphs are drawn from. Bit less editorialising and a whole lot more nuanced. Loads and loads of pretty graphs and stats.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/migrationandthelabourmarketuk/2016

Following on from the discussion with Corcory good news BBC business pages today. Retail figures have rebounded, Redrow building and selling more houses and making money, Halfords making money
from staycations and UK exporters in upbeat mood.

Peregrina · 05/09/2017 09:55

Yet, howabout, on the BBC business page right now the headline is Lego cutting 8% of its workforce, and UK car sales fall for a fifth month in a row, so at best the picture is mixed.

Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2017 09:56

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Bearbehind · 05/09/2017 09:56

Yet another article that begs the question- what is the point of Leaving?

Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2017 09:56

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LurkingHusband · 05/09/2017 10:11

Redrow

might sell even more houses, if you could get a wheelchair into the sales office ....

Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2017 10:23

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Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2017 10:23

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lalalonglegs · 05/09/2017 10:27

A ConservativeHome poll has put JRM as first choice among party members as future leader of the party Sad. Can't link but it's on the Conservative Home website.

Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2017 10:32

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howabout · 05/09/2017 10:33

Yep, falling diesel car sales and a much needed clamp down on car credit deals. Will be interesting to see what impact September to December scrappage schemes have.

No indication that the Lego issue is UK specific?

RedToothBrush · 05/09/2017 10:37

My feeling is that the SNP don't want another election so this is crucial to Tory rebels. It gives them a safe cushion.

It means they can threaten to abstain on anything Brexit knowing that the chances are this means there won't be another general election, which is what they are most afraid of. At best this means that it will be a leadership challenge for May.

May doesn't want this. Obviously.

Every time May has been in this situation where she looks like the government will loose a vote, she's backed away from the vote one way or another, either making an announcement or an amendment to a similar effect to what the rebellion sought to achieve.

If Faisal Islam is right about hardline Brexiteers no longer pushing back then that's also significant. The way Davies has been reversing is notable too.

There are not many options left to May as far as I see it. There is EEA (though this might be dressed in a slightly different way and called something different, but in essence it'll be to all intents and purposes EEA) or there is walking out of talks and going down the no deal route (by this I mean a serious attempt at this, rather than the flounce and 'capitulate' to the EU for the benefit of image and the press). That's it, in reality.

Even though Davies is saying 'not EEA' I think that means jack shit. I mean, its not as if Davies hasn't talked anything but bollocks and is finding ever imaginative ways of wording things in a way to make it sound as if he was never into 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.

The 'No Deal' scenario will kill the Conservative Party. The election proved this. Efforts to try and persuade the public that the EU is 'blackmailing' us or 'threatening' us, I'm sure will continue in an effort to try and push that agenda, but unless it gets traction (which I really don't will) I'm not sure it will do anymore than further fracture the country.

The reality is that 'BEANO Brexit' or 'not-EEA honest' are currently the most likely scenarios given the maths in the Commons and the shift in position by Labour. Labour, the SNP and even the LDs will ultimately settle for either.

I do think if May does try and revert to 'not-listening May', and tries push a ridiculous plan on the Tory rebels or comes up with some nonsense that is not acceptable to Scotland in general (covers the SNP and the Tories), then that's when things will get interesting. I do think you would see defections or rebellions in that situation.

The bottomline is, I think May is too chicken to take that risk now. She's spineless but likes to appear, and 'give the feeling' of being tough. She'll try and push it as far as she can, but will also back away in the end. It depends on how resolute the Tory rebels are to the bullshit and how far they are prepared to be pushed. My gut feeling at this point, is not very far, as they can see BEANO or EEA as realistic and achievable. I can't seem them making many concessions away from that.

This also allows the Brexiteers a way out, saving their face whilst able to blame it on others, all the while knowing that actually this is the best option they have and that, yeah actually, they misjudged Brexit without having to actually admit it. The less they actively push back, and only give half hearted criticisms of rebel tories, the more you know that's happening. You will get up with only a small number of Tory hardliners doing this imho.

The other point here is that you have the likes of Liam Fox more concerned now about demonstrating they have a point and that they should keep their job. Which leaves any vocal pain in the backside hardline Brexiteers firmly on the back bench. Gove doesn't want to go back there. Johnson, doesn't like his job, but he still wants a crack at the leadership and that's more important to both than Brexit. Davies is between that rock and a hard place. Lower Brexiteer ministers like Raab are backing away from Brexit slowly, and equally are sniffing out a leadership bid in the future. IDS is a Labour target for the next election. Don't expect a Tory to stick their neck out for Brexit in the short term if they have serious leadership ambitions. They will want to bide their time and see how its panning out first.

Wait for 'we thought EEA was a good idea during the referendum' position to appear...

I'm not betting against the tough speech threatening to walk out of talks, or saying we actually are (possibly actually doing this). You'd expect in late September / October, just before the Tory conference. Of course this will be followed by a swift resumption and full on pursuit of EEA straight after.

I won't be at all surprised if this is what has been said privately to Europe off the record, and Verhofstadt is stirring the shit about this mysterious speech that isn't being talked about in the British press.

lalalonglegs · 05/09/2017 10:41

Thanks, MoFD. The Guardian opines it is basically a protest vote in which case, what protest has a Wodehousian Old Etonian, regressive, gentleman of the Shires as its answer unless it's a general protest against the modern world?

LurkingHusband · 05/09/2017 11:06

Yep, falling diesel car sales and a much needed clamp down on car credit deals.

plus a marked disinclination of younger folk to learn to drive.

There have been 2 predictions I have heard in recent conferences ...

  1. That a child born today will not have to learn to drive
  2. The child that lives to be 150 has already been born

All the telematics black-box shenanigans to attract young drivers is a sticking plaster.

Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2017 11:09

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Motheroffourdragons · 05/09/2017 11:10

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lalalonglegs · 05/09/2017 11:15

And, as I understand it,a huge proportion of new cars are fleet purchases rather than private sales which says something about businesses being unwilling/unable to invest at the moment.

HashiAsLarry · 05/09/2017 11:17

Surely car sales dropping, of whatever type, is worrying. Considering we're expecting the German automotive industry to save us.

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Peregrina · 05/09/2017 11:22

J R-M for Tory party leader? Just over a year ago the party members were getting excited about Leasdom being the potential leader.

CardinalSin · 05/09/2017 11:25

"I think if JRM becomes the tory party leader that will be the end of them. There cannot be anybody in Britain who would vote for a party led by him, surely?"

Unfortunately, the kind of people who were fooled by the real elites into voting against "the elites" and against their own interests will probably find "the minister for people who could vote in the 18th century" endearing...

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