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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
LurkingHusband · 20/08/2017 10:31

Autarky is not very free tradey, no matter what Dacre's 'economists'/bbc say.

No, it's more ... what's the word ... ah, yes: Nazi ! That's the word.

I'm just waiting for "Lebensraum" to complete the set.

woman12345 · 20/08/2017 10:33

David Allen Green‏
@davidallengreen
David Allen Green Retweeted Marcus Munafò
Priceless. This is pro-Brexit economist Professor Minford arguing for the economic benefits of the Poll Tax.

Shaggy 6h
More
Replying to @BBCNews
See the end of the article; "During the referendum .. Prof Minford .. suggesting ..leaving the EU would .."eliminate manufacturing""

woman12345 · 20/08/2017 10:36

Jo Maugham QC‏Verified account
@JolyonMaugham
Replying to @ChrisGiles_ @BBCNews
BBC News is now hardly better than a propaganda ministry. They seem entirely to have abandoned their Charter obligations. Shame on them.

LurkingHusband · 20/08/2017 10:54

Lovely summary here:

charlottetalkspolitics.wordpress.com/2017/08/16/first-blog-post/

Eloquent, measured, literate and intelligent .... these are are all words that can rarely be applied to Brexiteer bluster.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2017 14:58

No manufacturing, no farming - what replaces those jobs ?
I suspect the vision of Minford and his cohorts is a return to the Victorian social pyramid:

Millions of people working for a pittance "in service" to a tiny superwealthy aristocracy
Brexit solution for the housing shortage: such positions were often live-in, to increase the working day

BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2017 15:03

(paywall) Policing cuts will cost London 4,000 officers, warns mayor Sadiq Khan

< More Tory risk-taking with lives Angry >

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/policing-cuts-will-cost-london-4-000-officers-warns-mayor-sadiq-khan-mb8qwxwkn

Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, has issued a stark warning that
Scotland Yard is set to lose up to 4,000 police officers at a time of an “unprecedented threat”
unless the government backs down on its demands to make a further £400m in cuts.

The row emerged as Scotland Yard announced a review of security for next weekend’s Notting Hill carnival, after the atrocity in Barcelona.
Detectives are studying the “threat to crowded places” ahead of Europe’s largest street festival, which is expected to draw up to 2m visitors.

Khan wrote:
“Without urgent government action, it is inevitable that in the next year a process of significant and sustained reduction in officer head count will have to begin.”

He added that police officer numbers could eventually drop to levels not seen since 2003 — a fall of up to 4,000 officers from its current total of about 32,000.

“This will impact on the safety of Londoners,”
he wrote.
“The front line is now at risk.”

In the letter Khan warned that London was in the midst of “extraordinary circumstances”,
with soaring crime rates for murder, knife offences and domestic abuse.
“Crime in our city is increasing, in volume, complexity and harm,” he added.

“Terrorism remains a constant and evolving threat to our capital and its people.

Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley has described the current tempo of counter-terror activity as ‘unprecedented’.”
< totally irresponsible to cut police resources, to add even more strain to officers working overtime >

The Home Office said London had “more money and more officers . . . than anywhere else in the country”.

< prats, Angry it's our capital, a world city with several times the population, visitors and high-value targets of other Uk cities >

LurkingHusband · 20/08/2017 16:36

Policing cuts will cost London 4,000 officers, warns mayor Sadiq Khan

As I age (disgracefully), it's crystal clear that a society has the laws it can afford.

A shrinking police force should prompt a debate on which laws are less important than others.

The never ending war on drugs springs to mind ....

SenatorBunghole · 20/08/2017 18:11

Constitional expert Professor Vernon Bogdanor is at it again:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/19/british-voters-second-referendum-on-brexit

I preferred the article he did earlier this month, but it's good to see him continue to narrate it. Not a high tolerance for bullshit, that one.

LurkingHusband · 20/08/2017 18:13

Professor Vernon Bogdanor

(channels Glenda Slag ...)

Crazy name ! Crazy guy ! Smile ...

prettybird · 20/08/2017 18:21

Good rebuttal of Minford's "modelling" and the inevitable consequences, albeit pre the referendum. Shame the BBC didn't point out how much of an outlier he is and challenge his thinking Hmm

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-britain-alone-scenario-how-economists-for-brexit-defy-the-laws-of-gravity/

LurkingHusband · 20/08/2017 18:27

(OT ...?)

Just a thanks to all who offered to chase up my missing meds Grin. As luck would have it, I cam home today (yes, Sunday) to an email from a higher-up in response to my comments on the original email I received from the company.

Their statement is they have simply discontinued manufacture due to business reasons (i.e. the increased cost of paying the licensing fees to the non-UK license holder). I suspect the ensuing shortage is because no one else wants to pick up manufacturing if the willingness of the NHS to pay is in doubt.

Exchange rate problems ? Surely not Brexit-related Hmm ?

And I so wanted to see a unicorn. Looks like I'll have to settle for stepping in unicorn shit Smile ...

BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2017 18:33

That's shit, not of the unicorn variety
I hope your doctor has suggested an alternative med.

In the meantime, enjoy the poop that genuine unicorns produce and DD can't find:

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter
pointythings · 20/08/2017 18:37

Dear LH, I am going to give you two unicorns. The first is the one the brexiteers think they are going to get. The second is the one they are going to get. It will gore them. Probably us too.

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter
Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter
BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2017 18:42

By the busload: £940m bill for Boris Johnson's mayoral 'vanity projects'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/18/bridge-940m-bill-boris-johnsons-mayora-vanity-projects-garden-bridge-routemaster-bus

The scrapping of Boris Johnson’s Garden Bridge project has exposed a £940m bill for his “vanity projects” as London mayor
and prompted a senior Labour figure to say her party was partly to blame (for lack of oversight when in govt)

< this illustrates one of Labour's problems:
they accept blame for things that are not their fault - liberal agonizing ? -
whereas the Tories blame everyone else for the inevitable consequences of their policies >

Eeeeeowwwfftz · 20/08/2017 18:43

pretty That was a really informative link, thanks.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2017 18:46

IS and white supremacists: Similarities & differences

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/20/charlotteslville-and-barcelona-extremists-united-by-perverted-sense-of-grievance

BigChocFrenzy · 20/08/2017 19:30

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/19/republican-party-white-supremacists-charlottesville

Gerrymandering, strict voter ID laws, felon disenfranchisement are all aimed at one outcome:
a voting class that is predominantly white, and in turn majority Republican.

The white supremacist chant of, “you will not replace us,”
could easily and accurately be the slogan for these Republican politicians.

Their policies will achieve the same racial outcome as Jim Crow – the disenfranchisement and marginalization of people of color.

It is a sad day when more CEOs take action by leaving and shutting down Trump’s Strategy and Policy Forum, and Manufacturing Council, than elected officials take action leaving Trump’s “election integrity” commission.

lalalonglegs · 20/08/2017 19:39

David Davis has been bleating to the Sunday Times about the impossibility of getting a trade deal tied up before March 2019 unless talks can start immediately (well, duh) and basically saying that the EU is being unfair because how can the UK make promises on the NI/Irish border/citizens rights etc if we don't know what we want the final agreement will be. Other EU governments think that this is entirely self-inflicted aren't quite as convinced of this argument as DD would hope:

UK hopes of EU trade talks this autumn will be dashed says Slovenian PM:

Miro Cerar, the prime minister of Slovenia, revealed in an interview with the Guardian that it had proved too difficult to close the differences between the two sides in the opening rounds of talks, with the UK producing some unrealistic proposals.

In October the European council, on which Cerar sits, will decide by unanimity whether sufficient progress has been made on the three key issues of citizens’ rights, the financial settlement and the Irish border, in order for talks to be widened to negotiations over future trade once the UK has left the bloc.

DD is just hopeless. I don't know how he dares to show his face when he in charge of such a fuck up.

SwedishEdith · 20/08/2017 20:19

Simon the Stylite‏
@Sime0nStylites

  1. Thread re DD's article in the Times today - link:
  1. What is the point of it? It's not news. Parallelism has been one of the UK's principal objective from the outset.
  1. Indeed, this was going to be the "row of the summer"...before we unsurprisingly conceded to sequential talks.

  2. (An aside - the publication of the article makes a mockery of the "no running commentary" position)

  3. The article isn't intended for the EU. We can safely assume the EU is aware of the UK's strong desire to move ahead w/ trade talks.

  4. The article is aimed solely at the UK public and media and it's objective is to begin the UK defense wrt "not sufficient progress."

  5. The UK's self regarding defence is broadly: we have worked very hard and these are complex and interrelated subjects.

  6. An alternative take: we desperately need to demonstrate to the UK electorate that we are making progress on delivering on our promises.

  7. (Note that per the Orb opinion polling c. 60% of the public doesn't think the govt is doing a good job re Brexit negotiations)

10 So here's the rub. The UK has its red lines AND so does the EU - the 4 freedoms, sequentialism and payments.

  1. "Not making sufficient progress" is the logical consequence of both sides' positions.

  2. Aside from the areas where there is broad agreement (e.g. EU citz rights) there isn't actually much to negotiate about.

  3. The UK wants the EU to compromise while the UK won't itself compromise - so why would the EU (certainly at this juncture)?

  4. For the EU, the position is simple - the detailed future relationship discussion will take place after (at least) agreement on payments.

  5. (If anyone's confused abt how much the payments issue matters see MB here data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/european-union-committee/scrutiny-of-brexit-negotiations/oral/69285.html … )

  6. If that all requires more time than expected, then the UK will be offered a "take it or leave it" transition agreement.

  7. In summary, the article is a largely pointless exercise in posturing prior to the "not sufficient progress" conclusion. /ends

woman12345 · 20/08/2017 20:24

DD is just hopeless and also frequently 'tired and emotional' according to Chapman. Grin

And Hunt? Takes something are other to accuse a scientist like Hawkins of being a fibber.

@Jeremy_Hunt
Most pernicious falsehood from Stephen Hawking is idea govt wants US-style insurance system.Is it 2 much to ask him to look at evidence?

@itvnews
Corbyn has defended Stephen Hawking, saying the country should 'listen very, very carefully' to what he has to say

Hunt's previous:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-hunt-accused-of-lying-and-manipulating-statistics-by-junior-doctor-during-live-bbc-interview-a6861116.html

woman12345 · 20/08/2017 20:37

The article is aimed solely at the UK public and media
Working out quite nicely for Dacre and Mercers so far, a media campaign/war with an Anglo Saxon audience, who have lived in almost complete cultural(and intellectual) isolation for generations.

Figmentofmyimagination · 20/08/2017 20:38

I went to listen to Danny dorling shortly before the referendum, talking on housing. He said the national living wage should be called the national servant wage, because it is the amount you can live on if you 'live in' as a domestic servant - no housing, commute, food bills.... He reflected on how parents were so proud to have seen the end of their children going into 'service' 70 years ago.

I lived for a few years in Asia and Latin America, where apartments typically have a tiny bedroom (space for single bed and chair, with a tiny shower and toilet) for the maid, built off the kitchen (the 'servicios'). The world for our children post brexit.

mathanxiety · 21/08/2017 07:03
Unicorns - we have known how fickle they are since 2005.
BiglyBadgers · 21/08/2017 07:43

They have Minford on R4 arguing for free trade. My favourite quote is from some poor woman sounding a bit exasperated while pointing out "It would be wonderful if we could have completely free trade with everyone, but free trade is a little bit more complicated then Professor Minford suggests"

He is now arguing we would have standards, but get rid of discriminatory standards. So just have the good standards that stop us having to take dangerous products but not any bad standards that stop us trading whatever we want...my brain has actually exploded.

whatwouldrondo · 21/08/2017 08:22

If only all "helpers" in Asia enjoyed the conditions Figment highlights. In Hong Kong they are an established part of the economy, with one or more in almost every family. They come from poorer Asian countries, mainly the Phillipines whose economy is heavily reliabpnt on overseas workers, mainly women. It is common for children to be left to be raised by grandparents. Even in prestigious apartment blocks accommodation can be in a room with only space for a chair or a shelf you would have to curl up to sleep on. Otherwise helpers are often expected Ed to sleep under the table or next to the bed of the child or elderly person they care for. They are expected to be available from when the child wakes up until the employers come home in the early hours and abuse is common. Only recently have cases started to come to court, in the past Police were known to be amongst the worst abusers. This is just today's helper related stories in the South China Morning Post www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/education-community/article/2107557/first-cambodia-where-next-hong-kong-may-open-door

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