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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

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lalalonglegs · 16/08/2017 21:17

Arborea - it's the date of the next big pro-Remain march in London. Chapman is due to address the marchers and (apparently) launch his new party formally.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/08/2017 21:18

Shocking if David Duke in the US really supports Farage for PM
Duke also supported Trump.

That's Duke, the former Imperial Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan racist terror organization

The hard rightwing of the conservative parties in both the USA and UK are flirting with Nazis or soft on them.
To the horror of mainstream conservatives e.g. like Sajid Javid - he's always been my fav choice for next Tory leader, but sadly has little chance

John Oliver (apologies to felines) :
"Nazis are like cats.
If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them."

BigChocFrenzy · 16/08/2017 21:23

I hope this doesn't complete the ruin of LH's day ...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/14/donald-trump-inauguration-protest-website-search-warrant-dreamhost

The US government is seeking to unmask every person who visited an anti-Trump website in what privacy advocates say is an unconstitutional “fishing expedition” for political dissidents.

The warrant appears to be an escalation of the Department of Justice’s (DoJ) campaign against anti-Trump activities, including the harsh prosecution of inauguration day protesters.

On 17 July, the DoJ served a website-hosting company, DreamHost, with a search warrant for every piece of information it possessed that was related to a website that was used to coordinate protests during Donald Trump’s inauguration.

The warrant covers the people who own and operate the site,
but also seeks to get the IP addresses of 1.3 million people who visited it, as well as the date and time of their visit and information about what browser or operating system they used.

lalalonglegs · 16/08/2017 21:28

^^ Surely that can't be true? Shock Shock Shock

Arborea · 16/08/2017 21:30

Ah, now I understand. Sadly I can't make it, I was hoping to attend a march in person and not just resist from the comfort of my sofa.

Mistigri · 16/08/2017 21:34

It is true that theologically some Christians and Muslims argue against equality for minorities, and for the subordination of women in particular, but in both religions there are plenty of people with more liberal points of view.

This pretty much sums up my last post. Do you genuinely believe that religion, or adherence to a particular religious subculture, plays no role in the subjugation of or violence towards women by men who identify as Christian? This is a problem for all the Abrahamic religions (all of which have some extremely troubling, by modern standards, passages in their religious texts). Religion may not be what makes men abusive (though it sometimes is) - but abuse is often justified by religion, and frequently occurs in a social context where religion is a central aspect.

Mistigri · 16/08/2017 21:44

John Oliver (apologies to felines) :
"Nazis are like cats.
If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them."

Love John Oliver (though a bit less of a superfan of the American TV John Oliver than I was of his pre-stardom incarnation).

Shocking if David Duke really supports Farage for PM

"Completely unsurprising" would be a better description. Farage is in bed with a bunch of European fascists and complete nutters, like the Front National, and that deranged Polish MEP who got himself suspended for describing women as weaker and less intelligent.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/08/2017 21:52

Human beings should not be regarded as an amorphous mass, defined by their race or religion.

When the Germany Parliament voted to approve equal marriage (and adoption):

The anti-Muslim populist party AfD (Alternative for Germany) opposed the measure on ideological grounds

But all 6 Muslim MPs voted in support of equal marriage.

Religious mainstream attitudes can change quickly too:

In 1985, only 9% of British Catholics believed that same-sex relationships were acceptable.
By 2016, that had risen to 62%.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/08/2017 22:00

There have always been fascists lurking in UK and US politics as long as I can remember, so at least from about 1970
They were the nasty creepy crawlies, that you had to lift up a heavy old stone in the garden to find.

Fascism has grown sufficient public support that these crawlies have come out in the open, because they no longer need to hide.
There is significant public acceptance / tolerance of them
We are told we mustn't stop debate, even disgustingly racist viewpoints, or "worse" will follow

Misti I think I'm shocked because Duke, Farage, Trump etc don't bother to hide what they are

They show clearly what they are - and people vote for them, apparently because of their fascist views, not in spite of them

woman12345 · 16/08/2017 22:08

Always liked John Oliver and am pretty partial to Stephen Colbert.

What's a tad worrying about current fascists is their munitions in America and here too. Ros Altman on channel 4 news spoke of the fear of speaking out. But I guess Cretan goat farmers felt the same in 1943 and did pretty good job of running them out of town.

9.9.17 as they say on the ouzo feed.

PattyPenguin · 16/08/2017 22:17

Re Sarah Champion

I knew people who were grossly misquoted by the Sun decades ago.

But this was when interviews were conducted by phone, they had no evidence of what they actually said, and they were young and naive.

None of those things apply to her. What in the world was the stupid woman thinking?

whatwouldrondo · 16/08/2017 22:24

This is a problem for all the Abrahamic religions (all of which have some extremely troubling, by modern standards, passages in their religious texts).

By modern standards , but that is exactly the point. The mainstream Christian and Muslim religions recognise on the whole that it is the spirit of the words in their texts rather than a literal meanings that should guide Theology and try to teach a message of love and tolerance. The words were set down in a time, society and place very different to today. Islamic scholars would argue that the Koran as it was written by Mohammed set down a more liberal set of values than the bible, although Jesus was also undeniably liberal, particularly in terms of the equality of the sexes, and only pronounces against abusive and promiscuous relationships, whether they be heterosexual or same sex. The texts that are used to justify misogyny, homophobia, and indeed violence, come from texts set down by subsequent warring leaders seeking to justify more conservative regimes, in other words using medieval values to guide modern action. And different sects don't even agree on which leaders' texts should be lived by. Conservative (Evangelical) Christians likewise use literal texts in the bible to justify their values, literal texts that arguably are not consistent with the teachings of Jesus. However none but a tiny minority of extremist terrorists actually seek justification for actual abuse and violence, and frankly they are not doing it because of religion, they are doing it because they are filled with hate. The key factor is not religion but the reality that criminal subcultures spring up for those with like values wherever society leaves the space, whether the values used to justify criminality stems from religion or the codes of East End gangsters or the Cosa Nostra.

I am not religious, I am a humanist but I do recognise that there are certain moral values common to many religions and to humanism.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/08/2017 22:40

President Jed Bartlet (West Wing) on the Bible:

“I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.

She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn.

What would a good price for her be?

While thinking about that, can I ask another?

My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath.
Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death.

Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or is it okay to call the police?

Here's one that's really important, because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town:

Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7.

If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football?
Can Notre Dame?
Can West Point?

Does the whole town really have to be together, to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side?

Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? ”

BigChocFrenzy · 16/08/2017 22:44

I soooo wish there were a Jed Bartlett on offer for the US < dreams >
Or for the Uk

I wish, since Obama hit the 2-term POTUS limit, that he could run in the UK
Sadly, he would face bitter opposition here
The anger over his "back of the queue" remark would not have been as resented by many Brexiters, imo, if a white POTUS had said it.

twofingerstoEverything · 16/08/2017 22:55

Arborea If you're in the north of England, there is this stop Brexit march, too

SwedishEdith · 16/08/2017 23:27

Does anyone here follow Mike Hind on Twitter? Last few days have been hilarious.

7Days · 16/08/2017 23:34

LurkingHusband
That was a fairly ignorant comment upthread about Fianna Fail.
Linguistically there is absolutely no connection between the Irish word Fail and the English word fail. It is telling that you immediately frame it from your own Britsh perspective. Ireland is actually a foreign country, our own history and culture, language even a different language family.
And you are a remainer. God knows what we can expect from the the Brexiteer side.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2017 23:57

James Chapman‏**@jameschappers**

I believe @theresa_may announced exit from ECJ believing she was talking about ECHR. She didn't show speech to me or @DavidDavisMP #byebye

James Chapman‏**@jameschappers**

Lord Rothermere told @david_cameron he knew Brexit was a disaster but he couldn't rein Dacre in because he was frightened of him 9.9.17

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JustAnotherPoster00 · 17/08/2017 00:14

I think they would still be coming with or without the EU however the EU is doing nothing to stop it. As an Island we and the Irish (who are also an Island) have a chance to survive what's coming.

Enoch Powell probably was right.

A quote from the Brexit Arms so not a vote about immigration then racist cunts Angry

SwedishEdith · 17/08/2017 00:55

He's (JC) deleted his account (or Twitter have).

SwedishEdith · 17/08/2017 01:04

He's back. Twitter glitchy tonight or he's deleted a few tweets.

mathanxiety · 17/08/2017 03:54

piie.com/newsroom/short-videos/posen-discusses-damage-brexit-british-economy 26+ minutes.

Adam Posen, formerly of the Bank of England, at a symposium on Brexit. Sets forth why Brexit will be catastrophic, and does not mince words about either Theresa May or Corbyn. Brexit will happen because Corbyn hates the EU. May is an idiot. Remarks at the end on what brought about the Brexit vote, where it comes from, what this zeitgeist really is.

Cailleach1 · 17/08/2017 05:02

Fáil is pronounce more like fall. Accent on the á an' all. I must admit I don't wonder how the tone of someone's voice is similar to a backside. As in tóin. It is a different language. You could kinda do that with all languages, if feeling juvenile.

You could knock yourself out on this one. I used to do a bit of fartlek when I used to run. Bra in swedish, meaning good also means fine or lovely in Irish as breá. Isn't a support for your boobies.

blogs.sweden.se/expat/2011/10/09/14-swedish-words-that-give-me-the-giggles/

"Nazis are like cats."
'Bog off with your slurs' says these two.

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter
Cailleach1 · 17/08/2017 05:53

James Chapman twitter page deleted?

woman12345 · 17/08/2017 06:35

James Chapman twitter page deleted sure is. Still, enough got out for the moment. It's served its purpose. But wonder who deleted it.