Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminsterenders: The Ersatz ImitationThread

968 replies

OlennasWimple · 25/07/2017 20:59

I am no RedToothBrush, so I'm not going to try to emulate her exception OP style.

Here, though, in the interests of carrying on our conversations about WTF is going on with Brexit and the weird political world we find ourselves in right now, is a sort of continuation thread

(Hurry back Red, we need you!)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
HesterThrale · 28/07/2017 16:45

Annie that article about EU nationals leaving the UK is so upsetting. I feel embarrassed, ashamed, angry and furious in turn in an eternal cycle of emotions. What kind of country are we creating? A horrible one.
And another thing: what good things have the Tories done in the last two years? How many reforms and legislative improvements can we actually name? It's ridiculous. They're going to waste so much time and money on Brexit, nothing else will be achieved for years.
(I'll have to stop ranting now; it's bad for my blood pressure. But I have felt so much anger this last year.)

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 28/07/2017 16:57

Anyone thinking that Ireland is going to rush to leave the EU because of all this is smoking something illegal

I think lots of Brexiteers believed Brexit was the start of the downfall of the EU. France was meant to vote in Le Pen and the EU would implode shortly after that.
Of course the reality is that Brexit seems to have immunised the EU against the more right wing / populist elements.

Artisanjam · 28/07/2017 17:07

The message that the Eu was on the way out and just waiting for enlightened guidance from the UK was plugged very very heavily in the Mail in the run up to the referendum.

It has some appeal as an updated form of empire building (Star wars!) leading countries out from the German imperial yoke....

LurkingHusband · 28/07/2017 17:15

I think lots of Brexiteers believed Brexit was the start of the downfall of the EU

The problem is, a lot of Brexiters were hardly coming top of their International Events modules at University.

Now you could probably say the same about Remainers. But then there should have been no onus on remainers to justify their position.

Extraordinary claims, etc ...

HesterThrale · 28/07/2017 17:17

My friend's daughter will take up one of the last training bursaries for nursing, which end this week.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-bursary-reform/nhs-bursary-reform

So how are we going to get enough willing young UK-born people to train as nurses? There's already a desperate recruitment crisis, and the number of applicants from the EU has plummeted by 96%.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-staff-vacancies-rise-10-per-cent-2017-86000-nurses-midwives-doctors-recruitment-crisis-brexit-a7858961.html

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/12/number-eu-nurses-coming-uk-falls-96-per-cent-since-brexit-vote/amp/

It's pure madness. (Blood pressure's gone up again.)

LurkingHusband · 28/07/2017 17:19

Annie that article about EU nationals leaving the UK is so upsetting. I feel embarrassed, ashamed, angry and furious in turn in an eternal cycle of emotions. What kind of country are we creating? A horrible one.

In all of these discussions, the most upsetting I have read was someone whose living EU parent was afraid they would not be allowed to be buried next to their UK OH who was deceased.

And MrsLH (who took my name) has been told to "go home" a few times now. (I got used to it in the 70s, but it's resurfaced).

LurkingHusband · 28/07/2017 17:32

So how are we going to get enough willing young UK-born people to train as nurses?

Perhaps not everyone sees it as a problem ? After all, why do they have to be UK born ?

Brexit should have revealed the opposing dynamics of UK society. Mass immigration was very bad for the less skilled indigenous UK population, but it was very good for the government and business. An endless parade of skilled workers, all paying tax, but never being able to claim a pension or benefits, with the added bonus that even if they saw through the government bullshit (which I saw take about 3 months on average) they couldn't vote to do anything about it.

The post Brexit dilemma is how to replicate that into native UK citizens, although the low electoral turnout suggests we're part way there.

(It's been a while since I was this cynical - TFI Friday, eh ?)

HesterThrale · 28/07/2017 18:00

You're right, LH, nurses wouldn't have to be UK-born, but I bet a massive increase in workers from outside the EU is not what Brexiters had in mind.

LurkingHusband · 28/07/2017 18:02

You're right, LH, nurses wouldn't have to be UK-born, but I bet a massive increase in workers from outside the EU is not what Brexiters had in mind.

Well I think it's about time Brexiters started to realise that Brexit wasn't meant for them anyway. And if they thought it was, they're thicker than I thought.

HesterThrale · 28/07/2017 18:05

Yes to that, LH.

HesterThrale · 28/07/2017 18:06

Yes to that, LH.

Mrsmartell08 · 28/07/2017 18:10

Yep

Mrsmartell08 · 28/07/2017 18:14

Any brexit arms ers still around?
Wonder what they think...

MsHooliesCardigan · 28/07/2017 18:31

Mrsmartel if any of them come on, they will no doubt tell you that it's all going to be great although they have been rather quiet lately and never seem to respond to anyone inconveniently pointing out facts.

DividedKingdom · 28/07/2017 18:37

Probably chewing on old scraps of Union Jack bunting and wondering how the fuck they're going to afford their healthcare/pensions/*

*insert bonus unicorn of choice

Mrsmartell08 · 28/07/2017 18:57

Yeah
That's pretty much what I thought

frumpety · 28/07/2017 19:09

I think at the heart of it , is the miscomprehension that the EU is some sort organisation that has nothing whatsoever to do with any of the countries that are a part of it , that it is an entirely separate entity , that none of the countries who are a part of it , have any say whatsoever in it . *

  • I think I deserve a star for that sentence Wink
GhostofFrankGrimes · 28/07/2017 19:25

I'd be wary of expecting to find British people to fill some low paid jobs in certain regions/sectors.

There was a news item a while ago about tourism in Cumbria. Obviously tourism is crucial to the county and a large number of migrants work there. In the event of a mass exodus of migrant workers there just isn't the workforce in Cumbria to cover the shortfall simply because the county has an aging population.

Another news item covered fruit picking. A British farmer admitted he could not get British workers because of low unemployment in the area. A rep from a recruitment agency said the same.

its also worth pointing out that some areas have low migration but an abundance of low paid work. Nothing is going to change here.

frumpety · 28/07/2017 19:25

Sorry , going to pop off now and read the entire internet and come back with something worthy and proper , and a link and everything Grin

frumpety · 28/07/2017 19:42

The result of the referendum, therefore, has thrown new light on deeper social, geographic and cultural divides that often lay hidden below the surface of our national conversation. Looking ahead, it seems likely that these stubbornly persistent and growing inequalities will strengthen. Both regional and individual disparities have pushed to the margins overlapping groups of voters, who live either in areas of decline or who live on low incomes and lack the skills that are required to adapt and prosper amid an economy that is increasingly built for those with skills, qualifications and resources. The more disadvantaged voters that turned out for Brexit are also united by values that encourage support for more socially conservative, authoritarian and nativist responses. On the whole, Leave voters have far more in common with each other than they have things that divide them. Over three-quarters of Leave voters feel disillusioned with politicians; two-thirds support the death penalty; and well over half feel very strongly English. Over one third of Leave supporters hold all three of these attitudes, compared to just 6 percent who do not hold any of them. This more liberal group of Brexit voters, therefore, constituted a very small part of the coalition for leaving the EU.

Probably been linked to a squillion times , but the good old Joseph Rowntree Trust .

HesterThrale · 28/07/2017 19:42

Don't pop off for too long frumpety. I liked your Star sentence and agree with it it.

lonelyplanetmum · 29/07/2017 08:33

My Nine year old just said of Treeza...." It's like she's taken the wrong path, and on that path there are lots of barriers she has to get through."

I know she hears me ranting but even so...

Gumpendorf · 29/07/2017 08:40

Matthew Parris knows who to blame. www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/the-conservatives-are-criminally-incompetent-zbnppmx92

The conservatives are criminally incompetent.

Can this really be Britain? Or has my homecoming ferry re-routed itself to a Central American banana republic where the congreso nacional has packed up for the summer holidays, the foreign minister has gone cavorting in Australia, the stop-gap president has departed to walk in Switzerland, the hairy Marxist resistance leader has started wrestling his own comandantes and the lugubrious Don Felipe, minister of finance, is staging a slow-motion coup?

There is a main culprit here, and it isn’t any of these candidates. Labour didn’t cause this mess. Whitehall didn’t frame the task, even if it is ill-equipped for its execution. Theresa May may not be up to the job but it’s a job into which she has been forced. And “the government”? The government is a collection of individuals. Where do these individuals come from? Who nominated them? Who keeps them in their jobs? Search for the key word in the following text.

We live in a parliamentary democracy in which voters elect representatives attached to parties. The party as an institution has form, and voice, and policies. The party chooses a leader. The winning party’s leader asks the monarch for authority to govern and if she is satisfied that the party can support its leader in commanding the Commons, she gives it. The leader then chooses every minister from the party’s ranks, and leads a cabinet drawn, too, from the party. And if the party loses confidence in its leader or government, it can, by withdrawing support, dismiss both.

The word that keeps appearing in this passage is hard to miss: an entity, a real thing, the thing that’s now in charge of Britain’s direction. It’s called a party. It’s the Conservative Party. Do the voters even begin to understand how this mess is entirely of the Conservative Party’s creation?

The Tories are turning Brexit into a humiliating shambles. They called a referendum when they didn’t have to, they accepted the result, they willed Brexit, they promised Brexit, and now they’re comprehensively failing to organise it. You can’t blame the voters, who quite reasonably assumed that the Tories would never have offered a referendum if they hadn’t thought leaving Europe could be arranged. The fingerprints for this crime of mismanagement are Tory fingerprints.

Thirteen months since the referendum and the Conservatives still can’t decide even the broadest outline of the terms on which we hope to leave. The difference between a soft and a hard exit is greater than the difference between staying in and a soft exit, yet the prime minister is still insisting that government policy is for a hard exit, while the chancellor (in her absence) says the opposite.

Nobody really knows what the foreign secretary thinks and I doubt he knows himself. The Brexit secretary, meanwhile, seems to be trying to play it by ear, but with no guidance as to the melody at all. And the trade secretary seems recently to have reconciled himself to three (or, if the chancellor is to be believed, as many as four) further years without any job at all. Some ministers say we’ll be taking back control of immigration when we leave in 2019, others that we will not.

And almost everybody has started to talk of a “transitional” period after leaving, without any hint of a consensus on what we would be transitioning to.

It now appears they and their leader started the countdown to Britain’s expulsion without even the vaguest plan for what we’d be aiming to achieve, let alone realistically likely to achieve. Worse, they pulled the trigger knowing very well that “Brexit” still meant different things to different members of the party and its government, and there was no reason to hope that divergent aims were ever likely to converge.

I call this criminal: irresponsible to the point of culpable recklessness towards their country’s future. The Conservative Party just thought they’d give it a whirl and all but one of them voted for the adventure.

The prime minister has gone away. “Ladybird, ladybird,” we might cry, “fly away home! Your house is on fire, your children are gone!” Except that we’re better off without her flapping around, spouting implausibilities. Perhaps reality in the shape of Philip Hammond may gradually bear down upon fantasy; perhaps forlorn hopes may steal silently away and various fools, while not repenting of their folly, allow it to slip their recollection.
I hope so. I left Spain feeling ashamed to be British. I return to England ashamed to be a Conservative.

lonelyplanetmum · 29/07/2017 08:41

Sorry if it was put on here before but I just saw the Washington American Enterprise Institute meeting to discuss the the United Kingdom EU exit. The economist and former Bank of England policy maker, president Adam Posen unsurprisingly confirmed the damage that choosing to introduce barriers with the European single market will cause to the economy.

The interesting bit is on the values behind Brexit, saying the arguments for free markets aren't just about economic efficiency, they are also about ...

" morality, openness and interchange with other peoples and about foreign policy" .The vote with so much emphasis on border control and symbolism was one that was largely based on

.....an ideology that is ethnonationalist, it is an ideology that distrusts free markets and competition, it is an ideology that distrusts change. Again they have the right to do this, but do not kid yourselves about what the values are, they are not values of anything anyone in this building should support.”

lonelyplanetmum · 29/07/2017 08:53

Nine year old has now just said

" ....it's like if we get through all the barriers on the wrong path, then we will take off in a rocket."

I said "What then ?" and she replied with a shrug " I don't know, probably just crash."

Well from an adult perspectives it doesn't feel like there's a rocket at the end of the wrong path, just a chlorinated headless chicken.