Westminsterenders: The Ersatz ImitationThread

[OlennasWimple]

I am no RedToothBrush, so I'm not going to try to emulate her exception OP style.

Here, though, in the interests of carrying on our conversations about WTF is going on with Brexit and the weird political world we find ourselves in right now, is a sort of continuation thread

(Hurry back Red, we need you!)

You have one astute dd there Lonelyplanetmum

As a general point, after regaling dh with the CFN Gardenzilla and DriveZilla threads, the Bohemian Rhapsody shenanigans in the States (Channel 4 News was hilarious in summarising it - and predicted the resignation) and the chaos of Brexit (disappearing PM, Chancellor stating that we will be having a transition period but no one seems to have told the EU, who would have to agree the details of any transition deal anyone would think the EU revolved around the UK's requirements ), he said, "The lunatics appear to have taken over the asylum across the world"

Of course, the sane ones are here on these threads

I have been pondering why there is such a selection of lunatics to run the asylum?

Didn't we have a better selection of statesmen/women in the past? Perhaps it's another product of divisions in society....so the bright people are drawn to other careers which are more intellectually and financially rewarding? In the past politics seemed to be a top job and attracted greater intellects and now it's isn't? Or perhaps I'm just joining the mistrust of politicians brigade which is very counter productive as we have seen.

I know there are some decent principled MPs, but it just seems the illogical ones rise to be more dominant...

Great to see that there is some sort of bridge between the two sides of Labour Party. Sadia Khanhas said a very logical thing and is now trending on Twitter. He thinks Labour can reverse the Brexit prices but through proper channel only. Like a second ref or a general election manifesto. I think its a bloody brilliant idea and very thorough.

LH I'm so sorry - and outraged - that MrsLH has been told to "go home"
Please give her from a mixed race British citizen who never really felt at home in the UK

Like a second ref or a general election manifesto.
It will need something like that; otherwise the extreme Leavers will not be satisfied. If we ever have another Referendum, I hope the conditions are drawn up tightly and e.g. have the situation as in Ireland, where there is a Commission overseeing them, and blatant falsehoods are not allowed.

howabout You are quite right that the poorer countries of the EU receive most of the regional funding.
The UK - in recent decades - has been one of the richer members of the EU, hence deservedly a net contributor, like Germany, Netherlands etc

However, iirc, it was the UK - in particular Mrs Thatcher ! - who actually created the whole idea of the Regional funding:
because when the UK joined, it was the 3rd poorest country and Regional Funding was the method she / the UK chose, to get back "her money" that she kept banging on about.

Much of what angers the UK now about the EU, are changes to the EU pushed by the UK, coming back to roost
e.g. Single Market (also mostly Maggie's achievement), former Warsaw Pact countries joining ...

I liked this summary -
"Hello, United Kingdom, it’s the United States of America here, and we need to talk":

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-twitter-thread-political-analyst-european-union-united-kingdom-united-states-america-7834846

The Uk contributions - that 350 million gross / 250 million net - come to about 0.7% of UK GDP.

Where the money goes:
https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/budget_enn_

Admin, including pensions:
“About 6% of the budget.

This includes administrative costs for all the institutions (mainly the European Commission, Parliament and EU Council), including the translators and interpreters needed to make information available in all of the EU’s official languages.

As part of a reform package, the largest institution, the Commission, is cutting staff by 1% every year, while also increasing working hours.
Ultimately, staff will be cut by 5%.”

The total EU headcount is around 30,000 to serve over 500 million people,
which compares favourably with 450,000 UK civil servants for 65 million.

Thee are estimates of the increased headcount that will be needed post-Brexit, but it will probably be more than the 4,000 or so that represent our share of that 30,000.

The cost of creating from scratch and reproducing all the EU agencies, inspecting facilities, infrastructure etc will take a big chunk out of that "250 million" savings

And that's before we consider the cost of the trade reduction that Brexit will cause, at least for a few years post-Brexit
the reduced tax take for public services and UK regional investment, especially if corporation tax must be slashed to try to keep businesses in the UK

I have a very German (begins with a Z ) surname but have never encountered any "Go home" comments (beyond some childish teasing when I was at primary school over 50 years ago ).

Wonder if it's to do with being in Scotland

I don't see this useless shower in govt - and official opposition - being sufficiently organized or united to be able to call Ref #2 in time

What I expect is that in late 2018, as the UK charges towards the cliff edge, some Tory business donors - and senior public servants - will finally be able to put the blunt facts and consequences of Brexit to the govt.

Then either those "experts" will be ignored again, or Brexit will come to a screeching halt.
Late 2018 will be an emergency situation, the last chance to avert disaster

The govt will decide what to do then on the basis of what will least harm the Tory party.
The good of the country, let alone the more vulnerable members, will not be a consideration

In fairness, the committed members of both Tory and Labour parties consider that what is best for their party is automatically best for the country
Similar psychologically to religious fanatics.

pretty I speak RP and my names are all very English
(although my mother's maiden name, which some official forms need, is Arabic)

My problem was always that my facial features are furrin, even though I inherited my English dad's blue eyes and mousy brown hair.

Although the Uk was the #2 - now #3 - largest economy in the EU, it has some of the poorest regions.

However, that has bugger all to do with the EU and everything to do with successive UK govts

lonely the lunatics running the asylum in Thatcher's time were just as bad if not worse and plenty still argue the toss about which brand of idiots was worse during the pre -Thatcher 70s.

In fact regard for politicians and "experts" is a very recent phenomenon which I find hard to get my head around. Less than a century ago "science" was not the revered technical World it is today. Modern economic theory is even more recent.

*Although the Uk was the #2 - now #3 - largest economy in the EU, it has some of the poorest regions.

However, that has bugger all to do with the EU and everything to do with successive UK govts*

The point of difference then is whether one regards the EU as exacerbating (Brexiters) or ameliorating (Remain) UK imbalances and Government decision making.

The Joseph Rowntree report quoted earlier highlights the issues of inequality, real or perceived driving Brexit.

www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities

Worth reading at least the conclusion in full.

Re the earlier partial quote the UK population as a whole was majority in favour of the death penalty and any difference re Leave voters is at least in part due to age demography. Over 70% of all voters (not just Leave) are disillusioned with politicians. According to ONS over 90% of the UK population identify as English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish although how strongly is open for debate.

Place marking

At this point it's becoming clear that post brexit the government are going to have to spend money on actual people, and not just on themselves. Probably why the tories are panicking.

Agreed Hashi

BigChoc - I'm blue eyed and strawberry blonde (at least I was when I was young ), with high cheek bones. Not sure if it was thanks to my German or Swedish ancestors

Probably German as my colouring takes after my dad who has his mother's looks (she was half German, half English).

Good piece here on Ireland's stance on Brexit and borders.

europaunited.eu/2017/07/28/britain-brexit-is-your-problem-ireland/amp/

(Apols if it's already been linked to)

Howabout thank you for linking properly , too much wine taken last night

Just going back to the shrinkation thing again , toilet rolls , not sure what Andrex or Sainsburys are up to but the inner cardboard tubes have definitely got bigger and the whole roll feels lighter , more budget brand like

Just noticed the same thing with the Lidl loo rolls (thought it was just Lidl as I usually buy Tesco loo roll). I've never had to replace loo rolls so frequently no one else seems capable of it in this household - and you can visibly see the difference in the size of the tube thanks to my laziness in rarely emptying the bathroom bin

BigChocFrenzy

I passed on your outrage, but MrsLH is made of stern stuff - 30 years with MS tends to toughen people up to handle name calling.

PrettyBird

My name is clearly not Anglo-Saxon, and I quickly learned to shrug off the "amusing" jibes (especially from teachers). But as far as I can recall by the time I was in 6th form (early 80s) there had been a sea-change. Which is why it's hard for me to escape the sense of a 1970s revival.

"The point of difference then is whether one regards the EU as exacerbating (Brexiters) or ameliorating (Remain) UK imbalances and Government decision making."

The point is whether Brexit will exacerbate or ameliorate it.

• The UK joined because it was being disadvantaged in trade and being left out of making decisions about the rules defining trade.

• FOM - which seems to be what motivates most "ameliorates" - will go, but it looks like the govt and business will keep all those low paid workers, just take away key rights

• so that they are easier to exploit
• and will bring down even more the pay & conditions of workers in those fields

Leaving the EU is totally different to never having joined it:

• The UK then belonged to / ruled EFTA and had many trade deals in place with countries around the world , including to the then EEC Post-Brexit is Year Zero wrt trade deals - it will take at elasticity 10 years to replace them all

• unless the UK just bends over and accepts TTIP on steroids from Trump and many more visas from India

• The UK had its own agencies and belonged to other organizations, in fields like international aviation, trading & safety standards, medicine, banking ....
  Post-Brexit the UK will frantically have to recreate about 50 agencies and negotiate joining umpteen different organizations

• Globalisation was only just starting, so less desperate need to protect UK workers from competition with developing countries
  Post-Brexit, under WTO conditions, some UK workers & businesses will be competing with wages & conditions in China, India, Bangladesh

Post-Brexit - unless the govt caves in to an EEA / EFTA type deal - the UK economy will suffer for years.

Brexit is likely to worsen the plight of the UK poorest, not ameliorate it

otherwise the extreme Leavers will not be satisfied

I realise it's probably not politically correct, but I really can't find any part of me that gives a shit if they are satisfied or not.

It is become clearer by the day that whatever Brexit is going to be, it won't actually benefit the people who supported it, and is probably going to be to their detriment.