Westminsterenders: The Ersatz ImitationThread

[OlennasWimple]

I am no RedToothBrush, so I'm not going to try to emulate her exception OP style.

Here, though, in the interests of carrying on our conversations about WTF is going on with Brexit and the weird political world we find ourselves in right now, is a sort of continuation thread

(Hurry back Red, we need you!)

Ian Dunt‏*@IanDunt*

Remarkable to see how readily the Corbyn left threw immigrants under the bus. The speed and shamelessness of it.
Joining in the hateful nonsense about wages, eagerly helping the Tories and Ukip destroy freedom of movement. A real eye opener.
Always thought business community was a fair weather friend on immigration (they are). But never dreamed so many socialists were too.

I will refer you again to the graph above. Its not just immigrants, its people who have these things called 'jobs'.

www.newstatesman.com/2017/08/yougov-research-brexit-proves-baby-boomers-hate-their-own-children
This YouGov research on Brexit proves baby boomers hate their own children
Why are we surprised Leave-voting pensioners are OK with famly members losing jobs because of Brexit?

Well the article is to the point...

www.ft.com/content/a8f25c62-7218-11e7-aca6-c6bd07df1a3c
Civil servants lament Theresa May’s ‘wasted year’ over Brexit
Mandarins accuse No 10 of stifling policy debates and alienating EU partners

But some government insiders say Mrs May’s approach in the months after the Brexit vote meant that the UK was not even “starting from scratch”.

“It’s worse than that,” said one senior official working on Brexit.

Senior official working on Brexit“There has been a failure of diplomacy,” the official added. “We have had the prime minister talking about no deal being better than a bad deal and [foreign secretary] Boris Johnson suggesting we aren’t bothered about getting a deal. The mood on the other side of the Channel is awful.”

Isn't it, well, curious how Leavers have gone from "Project Fear!! Glorious future! No downsides!" to "Significant damage? Job losses? ANY price is worth paying" without any apparent intervening steps?

Honestly. how did we get to this position - where a small section of very angry, pretty illogical people and out and out right-wing libertarians get to determine policy for the nation?

Years of people reading The Daily Mail.

www.standard.co.uk/business/eurozone-growing-at-double-the-speed-of-brexit-britain-a3601181.html
Eurozone growing at double the speed of Brexit Britain

Sunny Uplands.

We might recover from Brexit in 30 years is now seriously the line coming from some Brexiteers.

Why and how does that benefit me and my son?

This is what polling from YouGov said 8 months ago:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov
Poll suggests public will not accept a Brexit that leaves them worse off
Surveys from YouGov and Which? point to a growing worry that Brexit will leave the UK poorer

So there is also a big paradox here. (Mainly that its fine if you are not going to get poorer because you have protected status).

I'm not really surprised at the over 65 figures - given that it's about the Dunkirk spirit that's going to be tough but will get us through stronger than before bollocks.

I am surprised the % of younger age groups is so high, relatively speaking. 32% of leavers 25- 49 would be prepared to lose their jobs? 56% of same demographic are happy to see significant economic damage? Even allowing for the fact this group are numerically fewer, it's still a bit
Do they think the damage will only apply to those pesky romoaners?

Gumpendorf, its because they don't think its going to be their jobs even if they are the other group.

As I say, Brexit is something that is going to happen to other people, not you.

Even with the wording of the question, its still people who don't feel like it will be them that is stuffed.

The trouble for the Tories is its the over 65s that vote for them. So that's why they will go through with it because they can't not, because they will loose their support, but in the long term that will shaft them too.

Not that Labour is any better - especially if they support key votes.

Red. Thanks, I thought I was missing something but didn't realise people were now so deluded. What an almighty mess it is when we are making policy on such extraordinary blind perceptions.

We might recover from Brexit in 30 years is now seriously the line coming from some Brexiteers

Oh dear lord. My eldest will be 36. I was being very opitimistic and hoping ten years would be enough for the dust to settle.

My ds will be 46 in 30 years' time. If he doesn't end up making it as a pro rugby player, then I expect he will be long gone from the UK unless Scotland achieves its independence within that time frame

I wonder what % would think it worth it for Brexit if the question was

"would you be prepared to have current state and public sector pensions slashed, to have heating allowance & free bus passes abolished ?"

Mother After 5 years residence, you are entitled to apply for permanent residence,
BUT
I think most countries require you to provide evidence that your income - or that of your supporting partner - is above a certain amount and probably also that you have achieved a certain standard in the language

I wonder what % would think it worth it for Brexit if the question was

"would you be prepared to have current state and public sector pensions slashed, to have heating allowance & free bus passes abolished ?"

Or if you had to pay for your own health care rather than expect the state to pay for it.

May I direct you to the reaction to the dementia tax.

Says it all.

As I say, Brexit is something that is going to happen to other people, not you.

s /Brexit/human rights/ ...

I think the Independent article is a bit misleading though. Surely it should read 71% of the 64% of over 65s who voted leave? Not quite the same as 71% of over 65s is it?

Of course what happens when the current crop of over 65s croaks it, and are replaced by todays (say) 55 year olds ?

That Yougov poll has just summarised a lot of my family members.

If the UK insists on watering down E27 expats rights, then I would expect the EU would also reduce rights correspondingly for Uk expats

• however, that would be a minimum set of rights across the EU, which individual E27 countries might choose to increase

wrt not wanting E27 expats to have more rights than UK citizens:
UK expats already have more rights than other Uk citizens, because e.g. they can bring in a non-EU spouse & DC, without income limit.

Many such UK expats in mixed marriages thought they had found a way - moving to the continent - to enjoy family life.
However, if they have to return to the Uk, their spouse and DC may not be allowed in.

Particularly worrying for those near retirement or longterm SAHP, where the non-EU spouse can't realistically earn enough.
I know of one longterm expat who has recently acquired German citizenship for precisely that concern.

Great bitterness against the UK among the expat community here. I don't know about Uk expats elsewhere - Pensioners in Spain may still be in blissful ignorance.

www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/brexit-leavers-devotion
The Leavers' devotion to Brexit at any cost isn't funny
Sounwilling to be wrong, the majority of Leave voters are prepared to sacrifice their country’s economy and the jobs oftheir loved ones, just so long as they get their prize, Brexit

Another article that misses the point that

1. They don't believe Brexit will be bad (also see "the government wouldn't hold a referendum if it was going to be that bad" mentality). They have been told so often about 'Brexit Opportunities' and the benefits that they can't name and are just generally optimistic in outlook to Brexit, so the concept of it being bad is 'just being negative' such is the faith in Brexit.
2. Even if they do think that Brexit will come at a cost they don't believe they will be affected (and think their grandkids will be just fine as they will get the inheritance). They have some sort of protection / immunity to Brexit. Or are simply wealthy enough to exploit it.

I'm yet to hear a single thing from a leaver which I think is really contrary to that.